The Story Of Personal Brand Coach Heather H. Bennett

Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the episode today, we have Heather H Bennett. Heather, welcome.

It’s so good to see you, Thomas.

It’s good to see you also. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do?

Yes. My name is Heather H Bennett. I am a marketing strategist. I have worked for over 20 years in brand marketing, more recently focused on helping CEOs, executives, entrepreneurs, to use their personal brand to achieve their business goals. And I am the author of a bestselling Amazon book, Fun and Fulfilling Careers. One question at a time. Thank you for the introduction. I did say that I would like to ask you about your story. Correct me if I’m wrong. You do business coaching or consulting as well, is that right? Yes. Yes. I guess where I’d like to start, if that’s okay, is where you first got into business. So what were you doing before you decided to go into either self-employment or into your own business?

Yes. So I originally started out doing biology research, so specifically molecular, cellular biology for Unilever and really enjoyed the work that I was doing for them. And most specifically the work I was doing on the brands and getting to work with the marketing, the marketing teams and understand that the power of what a brand can do at that point I decided to go back and get my M. B. A. Because I was fascinated with how marketing and branding could change the relationship between a product and the user and the followers who are using it. So did that worked in consumer packaged goods for a bit on a bunch of very large well-known brands like Pyrex and some other ones that people have heard of. So enjoyed that. And then as a side hustle I was helping various businesses and people with their careers with their business problems, start-ups, issues with you know employers, people would just come to me and say oh could you just talk to my friend, my sister, my colleague and help them out because the way you phrase things and how you were able to look at a problem and ask the right questions to get to a solution is very unique and I said whoa I’m not an HR person, I’m a marketer. And there like just to help.

So eventually I start getting more and more and more of these clients and decided at that point to jump out of corporate because there was clearly a need for that type of help and I enjoyed it and it was it was fun. So jumped out of corporate and I’ve been doing that for and solely for about 18 years now. Okay, so the brand marketing is in employment, is that correct? Yes. And what was it about? The, I mean you had a say a preference to go into branding and marketing when you were doing biology. What was it about that? That would you say that you didn’t enjoy it or that you just had a preference for the branding and the marketing? Well, I enjoyed both very much. working in the laboratory all day with very expensive and loud equipment and radio activity and chemicals is lovely.

No, I really did enjoy much of it. I love doing research. I love data analysis, understanding the way to find connections to find solutions and to see things that you know, no one else can see based on deliberate and it’s very meditative. A lot of laboratory work. I find very meditative, very calming and I enjoyed that at the same point. There was an opportunity to do to do more and to take those skills of data analysis and methodical research and the ability to see those connections and be able to bring those skills into a new career, a new job. So, I was excited. It’s good to have that growth mindset and really look into what you can do with what you’re good at and how to bring that into a new opportunity because there’s more than one way to have a growth mindset. It could be to learn something new and then go do that, but it could also be to take the skills and the abilities you have and apply them to a new situation.

I’m very interested to know because something just popped up in my head about the fact that you used to be a scientist, but you also have branding experience and within marketing and I’m sure you’re aware there’s a, there’s sometimes a little battle between direct marketing versus branding and because you have branding experience and scientific experience, like direct response comes from science. So that’s called testing because they kind of stole it a little bit from science. So, um, where do you sit on that, shall we say? What’s your position on the concept of direct response versus branding? Well, two things, you testing is incredibly important. I am a true believer, especially when it comes to social media marketing and digital marketing, any anything of that venue that you really should be doing a B split testing and really understand what’s moving the dial because at the end of the day, it is a business, you’re supposed to be making money return on investment is really key to success of a business.

However, on the other end of the spectrum, uh, we’re not selling products to machines. We are selling products to people and people buy from people they don’t buy from. They don’t buy products they buy from people. So you have to have the perspective of understanding that a brand is an emotional, you know, a concept as well as a descriptive concept. So to be able to really understand the emotion and the thought process behind why someone is buying a product to really understand why the branding is so important for that purchase decision is very important. So I don’t, I don’t think you can really have one without the other and I would hesitate to lean too far in either direction, balance very Aristotle advocating balance as a very smart answer and probably one which I will use myself and pretend that I made it up.

So you’re in employment and getting all the branding experience and people are coming to you asking for help. Do you recall the first time where someone asked you to do something that actually under normal circumstances you could theoretically have charged for Yes, that I remember my very first client and she is still doing the work That we, I mean 20 years later, which I am very proud of. She’s still doing the work that we set out for. It was she was trying to make a major career decision and to whether to open her own firm or to stay on the career trajectory within an established business. And we did a series of calls, she was on the other side of the country and I, we did a series of calls because at that time there wasn’t zoom, there wasn’t you weren’t able to just pick up a google meet or whatever. And we talked about what was important to her, what our long term goals are.

We started, I just started asking a litany of questions and a lot of what I was doing was applying the way brand marketing looks at a brand and the way they look at the experience. And so I was asking those questions, so applying the brand concepts to the person and it worked. I she, you know, was able to successfully open a firm and here it is, 20 years later, she’s still doing the same work and loving it and very happy I saw her, oh gosh, a couple of years ago and it was, it was so it’s just so wonderful to see how much she still enjoyed what she was doing and that it really had led her down the right path at that time, interesting. So would you say that not necessarily just that first client, but the approach that you used for taking branding principles and applying them to someone individually has helped with your, what you’re doing now, would you say? Yes, definitely.

It was probably about 10 years after that first client when personal branding became an accepted and you know, conventional concept, people started really discussing it and at the time I was very excited because I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, this is what I’ve been doing for attending, this is wonderful. I have other people who understand what I’m doing and why it works and that are also um, you know, pushing that concept forward, like what is personal branding? How can we utilise it? Why is it important? So very much so, it’s still an important part of the work that I do now and those original concepts and ideas, I feel very lucky that I’ve had that much time to really build a methodology that I know works and will, will get the right response for my clients right place, right time moment for you then. And have you found demand for what you do has increased as a result of, let’s say, a trend of people requesting, Yes, it’s there’s no shortage of people needing help with their personal brands and I’m so delighted and honoured to help them in this part of the process for their careers for their businesses.

Because it really does, it plays not only into finding the right job for an individual, but how they do their business and how they do it successfully. So, um, how many times, I mean approximately would you say people are coming to you for additional help before you think, okay, there’s something to this and I perhaps need to consider going into business when you’re, when you’re in employment? Well, those first two years I was doing corporate in doing the side hustle at the same time and it was, it was, it was just every, like I thought every, I’d say a couple of months, someone would come to me and when I started seeing that trend and it increased, I realised there was a real need and that I actually very much enjoyed the work. Um, and there was an opportunity at the time, I was enjoying, I love brand marketing. I think there’s still part of me that would jump into a consumer packaged goods company in a heartbeat because there’s just, it’s, it’s so interesting and so fascinating.

However, you know, people are equally, if not more, so fascinating. So it’s been really interesting. So would you say, because when I have these conversations about the story, I always asked about the first day that you’re actually kind of an actual business where you’ve set up your company and also what you do when you leave your employment. But come back to the first part of that, would you say you’ve already got essentially a functioning business before you’ve even left your job because it’s a side hustle. Uh, financially, it’s interesting when you start a business, um, often it does take a few years to really understand, uh, not just, you know, how much you need to make in order to have it be a successful business, but also pricing and uh, the offerings. Um, so I would say with anyone who’s starting a new business, be patient and, and test, you know, really try to understand how to do, you know, really, test the pricing, test your offerings, whether it’s a service or product, get feedback because what you go into it thinking may change once it becomes full time and regarding when you left your job, what was that like?

It was the right time. It was the right time. Well, I’ll put it this way, five CEOs and four years for the company I was at I was it was it was a good a good time to leave. I could have stayed longer. I love the brain I was working on and we were doing very well, we’re definitely keeping lights on so I could have stayed longer, but it was it was enough to know that I had another opportunity. What was the feeling of when you when you were either going to hand in your notice or you actually left? What did that feel like? I’m I guess because I’m very forward thinking. So at that point the processing had already happened and I was like all right, let’s go, I’m ready. You’re ready to get stuck into your business full time. Yes, yes. Okay, so day one you’re a business owner, what do you do? Ah work, get to work? You know, it’s the whole you know, cobbler’s kids thing, you have to, it’s hard to do your own work for your own business.

So at least I at that point I had been, you know, working for a couple of years on these projects and these, you know, working with these people. So I understood that at that point I needed to really focus on what my goals were going to be for my business, you know, before it was it’s not as important when it’s a side hustle you, you don’t have that obligation to really say, okay, what’s, what am I going to stand for? What is this business going to stand for? What, what are the outcomes I want consistently to happen for my clients that they can rely on and refer me to others? So developing that, that reputation was very important at that time. And you mentioned pricing previously. Did you have issues there? That’s something I continuously work on understanding what the market will pay and what’s needed. That’s continuous improvement. I don’t think that ever really stops for any business. You really need to pay attention to it and understand where you are within the industry, within with your competitors and with what you’re offering. Interesting.

So because I have spoken to people previously in their life, they have a very clear, should we say, approach. And it sounds as if this is the correct way, but you say you’re saying the goalposts are continually moving and you’re advising that all the time, is that right? Yes. I’m also the type of person who changes her website every week. So, continuous improvement, I do believe that is part of being a scientist and looking for innovation and to really help my clients. I need to continually do that because I can’t help them create great websites or improve their businesses if I don’t understand what’s working, what’s not on my own. So you’re it’s moderately new, let’s say in your business venture, biggest challenges to for when you were first starting, what springs to mind, wow, let’s see. The biggest challenges, I would say, and this is common, I’ve heard many coaches talk about this is scope understanding where to put the boundaries between what work you will do and what work you won’t do. So at the beginning that was one of the hardest things for me to understand. I understand the benefit of having an MBA and running a consumer packaged goods, you are in charge of everything, the, you know, the buck stops here, you’re in charge of the bottom line, you’re in charge of PML if there’s an issue with anything in the brand or the business, it is your problem and be having that mindset, it means that you also think that you can do everything for your clients. So it’s it was important for me to gradually learn how to change the scope of where I could best help them and when I needed to outsource or when I needed to guide them in another direction. And at what point do you start adding, say different services because I know you cover quite a lot of topics when I was doing the research in what we could potentially talk about, You’ve got lots of lots of different skills and how you can help people essentially.

So I’m interested to know how that evolves over time and where your focus is with what you currently do. What I found I’m the best use of my time for my clients is for strategy, whether that’s marketing strategy, business brand. that is absolutely the best use of my time. I found that my time with them has evolved to focusing on that and then helping them figure out how to get it done more by strategically saying okay this these are the type of people you need to bring on board, this is where you need to outsource this, this is where you need to go to get this. So it’s more of having that overarching business strategy and that’s evolved over time early on. I would do a lot of the work myself, you know, build a website here, you know create a logo, you know, design of products and services packages. But you know the more that’s definitely evolved into focusing on strategy and guiding them towards where they can find the solutions and then having them do it, which you know, it’s I think it’s very important as a business owner to take responsibility for making those choices, making those connections and hiring professionals to do the work that needs to be done whether that’s an attorney or an accountant or a really great graphic designer and at one point because you mentioned it’s difficult to do the work in your own business.

How does that sort of tally with what you’re currently doing? How much do you get to outsourcing your business? I suppose that’s a better question. I would say enough, one of the best spends that I have done over the last, I would say five years is it’s actually getting a business coach and doing a dedicated to year continual cuts, you know accountability with business coach that changed everything, it clarified, you know everything from pricing to my communications to what I was offering to what I was willing to do. So that would be I would say of all the outsourcing or the professionals that I brought in to help me that would be the best spend that I have done. If I say biggest wins of your business, what comes up for you? Their biggest wins? Ah, there’s so many. I think it’s exactly yeah it’s okay so this is a very small and quiet moment, but for me it represents a bigger win that I hope that I hope happens with every one of the clients I work with at some point.

I was working with a client who was in a very large law firms partner and she was trying to decide her next step and we worked out helping her find her way towards this smaller boutique firm where she got to do some really interesting work that was, you know, really a growth opportunity for her going forward and it’s really lead to some wonderful opportunities since then. But What she said to me was for the first time in 10 years, I am loving my work again, I’m loving going to the job, I’m loving doing it and from me to hear that it may be like a small moment, it’s quiet, but it is completely I think ground-breaking in terms of how that can change how productive, how successful someone is going forward, what were the things that had to change in order for that person to?

I feel that way, a huge leap of faith. It’s hard to leave a very comfortable partnership position in a large firm. I it’s not for everyone. but it was the right timing and it’s led to very good things for her, but it was it was having that mindset that you can grow even in a career that you think has a very specific path, there are more opportunities out there than people can see. So it was it was a major switch which then ended into a positive thing. Is there any, where you’ve sort of, you know, spoken to someone and you’ve highlighted some things and it’s fairly subtle but it’s made a massive difference for them. It’s a good question. Have a good example. Okay. So I was working with the CEO of a large media company and um, media marketing problems. She had um, the company had a certain set of offerings and services and she had originally hired me to work on her personal brand and, and how that, that was interacting with the direction she wanted to take the business in.

What we ended up doing was recognising that the services that she, that her firm was offering were not aligned with what she wanted to do and who her personal brand is and what opportunities where, where she could best shine and where her organisation was the most successful. So we ended up doing work to create new service lines and uh, that made all the difference. It was completely unexpected. It was, it was something where we were having a discussion about, I’m always talking about products and branding. I said, well does this really align with the brand that you want to promote and she said, well not really innocent and how much of that work are you doing? Well, very little well that really shouldn’t be taking up, you know, you’re so much of your website that really shouldn’t be taking up so much of your time. So that was a big aha moment. It is interesting how I haven’t done a great deal of coaching, but I’ve been on the, I’ve done a little bit of it and it’s amazing how simple questions can just almost show you how you’re spending a lot of time doing something, which if you just had some simple questions asked of you, it can just make a massive difference.

So I totally understand regarding, let’s say current day, of, of the people that come and ask you for help. What does that typical inquiry look like for you? Almost all of my work comes by referral. We just had one a couple of days ago from someone I’ve worked with for a long time and it’s the understanding, I think the impact that the time with me can make and being able to say, you, you really need to talk to her, she does it in a way that nobody else does and she’ll get you to where you want to go. So, so that would be. And so that’s, that’s how I get most of my work. That’s, it’s really straight through a referral by someone who recognises my strengths and the main problems that people typically have when you first have a conversation with them, I would say right now and I do think being in the middle of the pandemic and the way that has shifted the conversation between employer and employee and loyalty and you know, employee retention has changed because that’s brought up people questioning why they’re doing the work they’re doing, it’s the whole, you know, what’s your why and the purpose driven, and I think businesses are also doing that from an organisational standpoint, they’re learning that they have to be pro driven businesses.

So I would say right now, the biggest question people are coming to me with is how to take what they’re doing or to change what they’re doing, so that it’s more in line with their purpose with their mission or to change to make some, you know, big strategic changes in their businesses so that it more reflects the purpose of their business and why they, you know, if it’s a founder or CEO you know, why did they create it? Why are they there? And how can we communicate that and how can we make business decisions that will align with that purpose and mission? Is it something that you, let’s say if someone isn’t quite clear on where they’re going, is that something that you can help them with? Yes, Yes. The series of questions, most of my methodology is using a series of questions and giving them homework and having them contemplate this. this is hard work, it’s not when you’re talking about these higher level concepts, it’s not easy or obvious and so, you know, sometimes, yes, there’s a light that switches on and they’re like, oh, I get it, but most of the time it does take a series of questions and moving them, you know, down a pathway.

There’s a methodology and marketing called laddering where you, you continually dive deeper and deeper and deeper and go, um, you know, well, why, why that and why do you feel that? And um, you know, what else could be related to that and you continue those questions. So, um, so that would be one of the things I think I do uniquely is having the patients in time and that the, you know, the series of questions to get people thinking about, well, how does this, you know, relate to what I want to be doing and how my business could work or my career could work have to ask, is there anyone where they tell you what it is that they want and they have thought these things through or is everyone basically operating where they think they might want something, but they’re not entirely clear on why? I’ve actually been pleasantly delighted some of the clients I’ve had over the past year have had very clear and specific goals and they were very much aligned with what they wanted to do and it was just a matter of getting them to see, you know, well, I want to get here, this is why, what do I need to do in between and it was or who do I need to talk to or who do I need to bring in.

And so I’ve been pleasantly surprised by having a few of those, but most of the time we start from scratch and then work our way up. It is nice to hear actually that you’ve had a few that way because my preconception about a lot of what people want is that they don’t really know what they want and if they, if they do know what they want, then they probably haven’t thought it through very well. I think, you know what I’m getting at anyway. Definitely. So in terms of what is in the future for you, I suppose it’s a good question. What are your goals? Mm hmm. Well, I do love the work I’m doing and I plan on continuing that I can’t see myself. It’s such a, when you’re doing something for 20 years and you enjoy it as much as I do. I can’t really see myself stopping that part of my business. at the same time with my book, I’ve been requested to make an audio book of it by reviewers and fans.

So that will be in the works this year. and then going forward, I will probably by the time this podcast ears have completed my certification, I’m getting a board certification from the corporate directors International, which will prepare me, I’ve worked for a number of years on non-profit boards And this will prepare me to take some of the strategy and what I’ve learned over the last 20 years and apply it to corporations. Great answer. We missed the book in the story. So it shows you what, what good a job I’m doing as a host because I missed a significant part. At what point do you decide to write the book? Okay. So that’s actually one of my favourite stories to tell. It was about 3.5 years ago. It was over maybe seven months. I had so many people, my client’s past clients, colleagues, people, you know, I know from networking groups and friends and family.

Tell me, could you just write down everything you say? I had a workbook at the time that I used, you know exclusively with my clients and retreats and workshops and they said, well, the workbook’s great. But what we really need all those stories and the way you phrase things and and the examples that you give in between the workbook pages that you don’t have on there right now. So could you, you know, in your spare time, could you just, you know, write a book and uh, you know, you get asked enough. Okay, fine. I’ll write a book. So it took about 2.5 years to write the book. I did not. I took my time writing it because I wanted to have the backup research, you know, whether it was psychology or neuroscience or business acumen behind all of the methodology, so people would understand why I’m asking them to do the different exercises and it was well worth putting the effort into. I my editors brilliant.

My mentors are brilliant and they’re very helpful. So I’m most grateful for the world what they helped me accomplish with the book. And it was written, I mean, you can’t write a book that’s called fun and fulfilling careers, one question at a time without making it fun to read. So I pushed my editor very hard. I said you need to help me write a fun book. You know, I’m gonna write it, but you gotta tell me where, you know, where am I going off track and where this is not an enjoyable experience because I want people to enjoy the process. It’s hard work, but it’s worth doing. So if I make it enjoyable, then they’ll be willing to do the work. I’m always and I perceive it to be a more positive thing if someone spent a significant amount of time doing it because I do think of the two extremes if you like of, you know, getting it out really quick versus taking too long to do it. I think I think I’d probably fall on the side of there’s not enough quality as much as there is quantity.

So you spent a good amount of time doing it. Did you enjoy doing it? Yes, that was one of the parts of writing the book that I was most surprised about. I actually, one of my undergraduate majors besides biology is English and I really enjoyed the writing part of it much more. It was, it was one of those moments, you know, they talk about that sense of flow where I, if I had time while juggling everything else and to sit down and write, I would completely lose sense of time and be able to just right for like hours. It was, it was wonderfully indulgent and at the same time very purpose driven, that is one of the signs of someone’s passion, if I’m not mistaken, is not realising that time has flown by. So, would you say it’s a passion of yours too? Right, definitely, definitely, interesting. So I’m not going to move beyond the book, but I do want to ask, is there something in the pipeline, are you writing a new one?

Always. So, the workbook, that will be a companion piece to it. So people have places to write down and there’ll be additional exercises is in the works? I would love to say it’s more than 40% done but having gone through the process of publishing a book, I think if it was before I had published my book, I would have said, oh I’m 70 80% of the way there now, having been through the process, maybe 40%. So yes, yeah, I understand what you’re saying there. Favourite bit, favourite chapter, my favourite chapter, huh. Probably my favourite one, which was the hardest to write, was the final chapter and you you’re right, it’s very hard, like when you’re writing it’s hard to know when to let it go because you’re never going to feel like it’s done, there’s always more to improve.

But it was understanding how to take, you know, the purpose of what I do, which is to by helping people find the work they love to do and build businesses that, you know, basically make the world a better place, you know, they’ll have the time, resources and energy to go out and help others and to make the world a better place. So that would be, that’s what, that’s why I do the work I do. If I can help people find joy in their work and to do good things and be successful, then they will be able to go out and do great things to help others. so that was an important the closing chapter was very important for me to write and you know, maybe, you know, I guess maybe this is and thought of it this way, but maybe by writing it allowed me to let the book go to say it was time. And what about the actual promotion of it? Because the way I view it is that it’s almost like two different jobs. I mean you’re at an advantage because you’ve got marketing experience, but for most authors, they think the job is done when the book is done, but in reality that’s where all your work starts, right?

So your thoughts there. Yes, I have actually really one of the things I enjoyed the most about promoting the book is having conversations with people like you who ask really good questions and have very good insights. So I’ve thoroughly enjoyed being on podcast and the conversations and the new ideas that come out of that. so that’s the good part, all of the other business of marketing of a book? I you know, there’s a lot of wonderful groups and communities out there of writers that do want to help others. And I would highly recommend finding at least one, if not a few of those and getting a few mentors as well who have been through the process. It makes it makes it much more the site, like you said the second job, which is marketing the book much more enjoyable because you have someone to go to that you can say, well, I’ve been told to do this, but does this make sense? If anybody it’s much better to have that support.

Are you proud of what you’ve created? Very much so. Yes. Well done then. It’s not easy to be proud of yourself. I don’t think so. Congratulations on becoming an author. Thank you. Is there anything I should have asked you about today? Good question. I think that about covers it. I, you know, like I said, my next step, I’m looking to be on the board of directors for an organisation where I can apply all of this knowledge. And that’s I’m very excited that I’ll be starting that process very soon. I want to share a bit more on it Or is it super confidential? No, no, it’s um, I that’s another interesting story. I was asked by a friend of mine, another CEO who was working with an organisation. It’s ACL. Who was putting out an online course and she said, well, I know you’ve worked with a number of your clients, you know, especially, you know, professional speakers and other, you know, thought leaders who produce online courses. Could you just take this course and tell me what you think about it?

You have an MBA. You’ll understand the board governance, you sit on non-profit boards, you’ll be fine. So, you know, she wanted feedback on, you know, how did it sound? How was it set up? Did it run well, and I had time. So okay, I’ll help you out. And she was a very good client of mine. So of course, of course I’m gonna help her out. So I took the course and it was all about board governance and being on, you know, preparing yourself to be on a board of directors. And at the end of it was an online course at the end of the course, the Director Michele Ashby, wonderful podcast guest. I love listening to her. she had asked, you know, to have a one on one with me because I had scored very highly apparently, and she said, well you really should be doing this for a living, You’re clearly very adept at it. So could you just, you know, take this other course and at the time, i it’s the course I’m in is very intensive, very focused big commitment, both time and money.

And I was like, I don’t know. I don’t have time right now, I’ve got too much running going on. And she said, well, just think about it. So seven months later I called her up and said, alright, when’s the next, when’s the next class? And she said, I’m creating a cohort of 12 women and I think it would be an excellent addition to it. So sounds positive. Sounds like a good thing, yes. Why seven months just out of interest? You know what, this is one of the exercises I do with my clients is called time mapping. And it’s the idea of being consciously choosing how you’re going to spend your time? So I also do this exercise for myself and at the time I understood there were certain obligations, um, and organisations that I was helping that I needed to step back from. And so once I had developed a planet, you can’t necessarily just step away from something you need to plan months in advance sometimes. Um, once I understood when I would be able to step away from those organisations, I knew that the time was going to open up in my schedule for the course and that I would really be able to seriously dedicate attention to it.

So organised. And one of the things that keeps coming up for me is that you’re very productive. If you have anything that you wanted to add on that particular note, um, I’d like to spend more time kayaking this year, being outdoors. Yes, yes, I realised that there’s um, there’s times in your life and I mean, I would throw the question back to you as you know, has there been a time in your life where you’ve recognised that you need to spend time doing the growth, you know, working hard to push yourself to the next level. But then, you know, like, what would you do after those? Because I’m sure you, you, you, you can think about in your mind, those points where you had to hustle, you have to work really hard and then like, what did you decide to do afterward, you know, to step back to reflect, I’m have you heard of the term grit entrepreneur? I’m quite good when I have to be, but when I no longer have that struggle, when it starts to get comfortable, I have to find a new thing which is going to take me, shall we say – I mean obsession is bad, is considered a negative thing, but tunnel vision, I’m gonna work on this until I get to the point where I guess is comfortable again, so I don’t think of it as work as such because it’s just as you say, as you mentioned previously, it’s kind of the time flies by and you’re working on this thing until you get to the point where you want it to get. So I think you do have to be thinking about that personal time as you referenced, but I just kind of, it’s just the thing that I do, I just get hold of an idea that I want to do and then I hammer it until, until I get to the point where I have to find a new thing that’s about as introspective as I get, I suppose that’s it. It’s good to be aware of though, because then then you can understand the cycle of which new project or which new business you’ll enter? Alright, well, I think it’s been really, really nice going over your story and I think there’s an awful lot of learnings there, which is why I like to do it.

Is there anything that you’d like to close with? No, just thank you for the opportunity. This has been a good discussion. Well, where is the best place to find you? And also where people can buy the book? So the book is on Amazon eBook and paperback, Fun and Fulfilling Careers. One question at a time, the best way to reach me would be on LinkedIn at Heather H. Bennett. Or you could go directly to my website with it, which is heather H. Bennett dot com or my business site which is creative brand coach dot net. And when you google your name, do you come up first? This is a reference to, well, we talked about previously about many Heather Bennetts and many Thomas Greens.

I appreciate your time today, Heather, you’ve been a great guest.

Thank you so much Thomas. I’ve really enjoyed this.