Authentic Conversations With Ho Yin Cheung

Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the podcast today we have Ho Yin Cheung. Ho Yin, welcome.

Hey Thomas, thanks for having me.

It is my pleasure. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, sure. I am the founder of Remo. Remo is an immersive map based virtual events platform where we help businesses help their audience not only educate them, but create authentic conversations that drive meaningful relationships that ended up driving revenue leads, education, advocacy and championship your business goals.

Thank you for that. In the sort of messages before we recorded – there’s an awful lot that I can sort of get to talk to you about – one of the things which it does look like it’s important to you is authenticity. And the proposed topic of discussion is how social media is anti-human and how we lost authentic conversations that build meaningful relationships. So as a starter, would you like to open with how social media is anti human and what you mean by that?

Sure, wow, we’re going right for the meat of it, I love it. Okay. So I think really what, you know, we’ve kind of seen what’s transpired over the past several years you know, especially whether it’s Brexit or with you know the US Election, I think we’ve all kind of seen this intense polarisation that’s been happening with our discourse and how we talk about things the way – how we talk to each other or the lack of and I think a lot of us have a kind of, you know, there’s a lot of documentaries about this or something to talk about this – but I think it’s really important to kind of point out that a lot of the sort of hollow chamber kind of everyone’s just talking in your own bubble has resulted in a lot of disconnects between groups. And this further like narrowing and kind of digging in their heels and their own perspective or their own opinions and just the lack of, you know, being open and then talking to others and welcoming other thoughts.

And I think a lot of this has been a challenge because of the social media that we have you know put ourselves through and none of that, but the social media is just designed for more engagement. Social media is designed that you need to click on something. They don’t care whether you click on something, it’s good or bad, they just want you to click on something. And so the whole concept of that social media for the sake of engagement has led us down this rabbit hole of this passive dive very rapidly diverging opinions that essentially lead all of us to weaken our social anthropological like the way how we organise ourselves socially, it’s just weakened that whole infrastructure that allows that because now everyone’s looking at different sources of information, it’s too much information. And so because of some machine learning algorithm that is essentially a machine, it’s a machine it’s not really human because it doesn’t create those the joys and the differences of what it means to be human, right?

It doesn’t do that. And therefore, a lot of what social media’s created is this great anti human, that’s how we regard it as and it’s not authentic because it’s not being created to be authentic. It’s being created to optimise for clicks and optimised for ads. And so at the end of the day, like that is something where I think is a challenge for us, how we kind of navigate through technology that we created. That’s essentially like technology is supposed to work for us, but right now it’s kind of flipped around like we’re kind of beholden to technology. So I think that really it’s nothing really existential about that. It’s just like we have some technology, it’s just not being used in the right way or we haven’t set the guardrails in place on when technology should be used and what it should not be. Just like in financial markets, just like the FDA or any kind of medical device, we have guardrails set in place for those technologies. We don’t have that for social media.

Do you think there’s any room for a viable solution there, either within the existing companies or new ones, perhaps?

No. That’s a difficult question to answer. I mean with existing companies, they are so dug into their current business model it’s very difficult to change as soon as I want to change. The business model is like it’s incredibly different because there’s no incentive greater than your own business. So the incentives are not aligned with their incentives because of what they created. Their machine is created. That machine is not aligned with what I’m talking about. Not entirely. And to make that shift to pivot, the only time because pivot it depends on their revenue. So they were not doing that on their own and I think it has to be done through some kind of regulation, which is what you’re seeing in Europe right now. They’re starting to regulate the space more tightly. And the US is still pretty far away from that. They’ve attempted to but I think they’re not moving at the pace where they need to be. I think it has. I think the sad thing is, I think if we’re going to take some time and I think maybe it has to be done either through regulation and regulation may spawn, may create new social media that will potentially be the next Facebook. I mean, if you look at social media networks, there’s been, I don’t know, six or seven ones over time and they all follow the same graph. It just goes up and down, up and down, up and down and it just overlap, you know Myspace, I seek you. Like you know, all these different ones just over time. They will, yeah, have to be taken over by the next one.

What’s your take on whether social media has sort of made us worse or just shined a light on how we already are as species?

So I think social media has given us a lot of information and it gives a lot of opportunity. Did you think that we wouldn’t have done before and you know, a lot of times we’d probably do these things in private or we wouldn’t talk about it so much. So it has given us that extra sort of much more broadcast phone that people can broadcast so that we do see all the worst parts of it. In fact, what it does is it just amplifies the good and the bad. When it’s good, it just amplifies it out. When it’s bad, social media doesn’t care if it’s good or bad in general. All they do is it just amplifies anything that’s clickable. Whether it’s good or bad, it follows the same viral loop and just now some bad things do get amplified. You could argue that maybe bad things amplified more because bad things are more clickable potentially. So you could argue that it does amplify bad behaviour or bad things, but I do think that it’s something where I don’t think it really cares.

I think it’s just a machine algorithm that someone in Facebook or whoever created and they’re just optimising or something. The way how we as humans use it today. Unfortunately, we don’t really control like we can’t really – yes, me and some other people, not necessarily, but just people in general that don’t subscribe to social media, they don’t do that. They have to have control of this vast number of people that maybe they don’t know; they don’t care or they’re not sure they’re just consuming it as if it’s just content and, in some sense, maybe those people don’t have control because they don’t know or they may not be aware and in those cases.

Yes, it does show kind of the worst in us because they don’t have control. The next part of the question is about authentic conversations. Would you mind giving an example of a conversation that you might have with someone which is authentic and then it’s equivalent on social media, for example?

So an authentic conversation is when you have a conversation between two people and to me it’s in general pretty simple. It’s you if in the physical world you probably go to a bar or you go meet someone at an event, you sit down, you meet them either serendipitously or whatnot. And it’s just a normal human conversation and you ask each other questions, learn about each other. And if there is some interest or potential collaboration or interest to move the relationship further, achieving both goals, then there is a chance to develop a relationship. And authentic conversation is kind of like a chance to develop a relationship where we, everyone each person exposes just enough to say, hey, you know what, there is interest here to kind of work together. Or no, there is no interest and we’re just so not really in each other’s orbits. It doesn’t make sense, but it’s basically being able to evaluate each other in a very authentic way.

In social media, there’s not really any opportunity to really do that because you’re not talking to each other, you’re just texting each other. It’s just through text. It’s sanctimonious. It’s not an actual conversation replying to people own. Chat is not a conversation, it’s sending letters to each other at a very high frequency. But that’s not a lot of conversation. So I would say social media, there really isn’t too many, like I don’t think there is currently.

Do you think again, coming back to what the potential solution is, do you think there’s any improvements that are possible there?

Well, in terms of social media, like there are some areas where some people are now having these like, like clubhouses, for example, like clubhouses, having an ability to have a conversation, everyone listens in that is possible as an improvement. it does kind of ride on the fact that you’re an influencer and you want, you know, so right now, clubhouses very early on that stage. And so every platform will get to a point where it becomes very mass adopted and when anything becomes mass adopted, that’s when it usually becomes mediocre in the context of authentic conversations, You mean authentic conversation because once it becomes masked everyone, every growth market or every person who wants to take advantage of it is trying to take advantage of it in order to achieve their goals, whether it’s to hack it, you know, to push their own agenda or whatever in the most effective way possible. And that’s when, you know, basically, you know, early stage, it was great. Now emails more mediocre because they’re spam, that’s the same thing. Facebook, you get spanked. So, what email did is they created spam filters. What Facebook did is they have a team of moderators filtering the content. It’s essentially the same thing. It’s filtering. So to let the system keep going you to have to filter more.

And clubhouses is such an early stage that you don’t need that as much yet because it’s not being mass adopted, but eventually it’s going to be that as well. So my opinion is like really the ability to, in my opinion is like the solution isn’t about creating very super public facing things. It’s conversations for relations to happen, just how human beings have done it for thousands and thousands of years. They do it in small groups of small communities, Like conversations happen around campfires, around smaller groups, not this one person standing on. So because now what’s happening is that you’re in the town in the middle of the town square and there’s 50 people, each person standing on their soapbox and talking about their thing. If you look back at history, that doesn’t really work.

Yeah. Now the last part of the question is around sort of building meaningful relationships. I am 100% on the same page with you in terms of everything you’ve said prior in this particular part of the question around building meaningful relationships as I understand it. There are some examples of people building relationships through social, perhaps people who don’t have existing friendships who have reached out and found people who are similar to them, for example. The flip side of that is that I think there are a lot of, should we say, hollow or shallow relationships on social, but what’s your take on, I suppose, that conflict, if you like?

I think that’s a good point. So I think it’s not that like you can’t produce relationships through social and you can, but if you think about the number of times you have some sort of concept of textual conversation, you compare that with the number of times you’re going to have actual conversation. So, for example, let’s say you talk to 10 random people online versus talking to 10 random people in person. Which way do you think you’re going to create more relationships? And I think we would all say, well obviously 10 people that we meet because if you put on a physical event, you actually meet them, you’re going to meet more people that are more like and you just get a better feeling.

So it’s not that you can’t, it’s just not very efficient, It’s inefficient and we’re ending up trading in efficiency for all this bad stuff that you know when we get from social media, so it does have a role for these individuals who are unable to do that. So the way how I see it is like we have to change the nature of it, it has to be more focus on the authentic conversation, more focused on video, more focused on smaller groups. it doesn’t have to be towards like the entire world, it needs to be more measured in that sense And those individuals, I would argue would prefer that because the quality of the relationship that will generate that they could not otherwise get will not only be higher, but easier would be easier. We have a lot of introverts that use our products and a lot of them, they say it’s easier to talk to people through Remo because when you’re on a video call – I call it the big filter – when you talk to someone online, there’s some reason why you’re talking to them, but you don’t actually feel that that person is sitting in front of you obviously, right, because it’s just a video screen.

And that’s not to me is this effect where you’re a 2D photograph that just moves for some reason, I can’t see your body, I can’t see all the non-verbal cues, all that stuff is filtered out and therefore they don’t feel embarrassed or they don’t feel uncomfortable. It’s a very strange thing. And so I would argue that you can have authentic conversations without the rest of that social media stuff in terms of shallow relationships. You know, there’s I think the shot, it’s shallow because the depths of the communication is not deep enough. And so yes, I would argue that, you know, at the end of the day, people, humans are social beings, even though the degree of social, how people want to be social is obviously very wide for introverts and extroverts, but at the end of the day, human beings are social and they need to socialise at the appropriate level that they’re comfortable with, whether it’s a lot or whether it’s very little.

And the good thing about virtual events and what we do is you can control that. Do you want to leave? You can leave. If you want to stay longer, network more, you can do that as well. But when you’re at a physical event, it is full on. When someone is in front of you, you have like someone’s kind of beside you, right? And you’re like, oh should I talk to, oh my gosh, I gotta talk to this person. You don’t really have too much choice to either talk to them or not, right? It’s a lot of human tickets that we have to follow in order, you know, to fulfil certain societal norms and social norms, right? For some reason, personal events, a lot of these things like you cannot follow. Like if you’re at a table and find people, you can just leave if you want or you can just wait and just quickly leave. You know, you don’t have to say, oh I need to go to the bathroom, I’m going to go get a drink. You can just say, hey, I’m just going to see some other people and it’s totally fine, like it’s like much easier.

So my argument is it’s actually a win for both of those cases. but at the same time I’m not advocating that virtual events is the, is the be all and all. It is not, it’s just that it does help a lot of these edge cases.

There’s a lot of these cases that allow us to kind of give an opportunity to build a relationship without the textual lack of depths, right? Because yeah, without that – I do want to ask you about Remo for context, but before we move on from social do you use social media, and if so, how do you go about using it? And how would you encourage other people to use it if they are already on it?

I don’t use social media hearing. I just don’t the only time I use social media personally is if I just want to see how someone is, like I want to reach out to them and to say, hey, I haven’t spoken a while and hey, what’s up? I don’t even look at their feed on Facebook. I go and message them and see how to do it. So it’s like a phone call, you know like, you know, traditional phone for recommending. I mean, I don’t know if that’s, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t dare recommend. I think that’s a pretty, I think everyone’s very different. Everyone kind of has a way of doing things online. I think for me it’s like I used social I used to be in the business with the media and so it’s kind of like, you know, you work at McDonald’s or you work at a restaurant and you don’t really eat the food at the restaurant, it’s kind of like that. So I’ve seen all the sides of social media, the good and the bad enough for me to kind of see that say that it’s probably not what’s right for me personally. but I think everyone has different ways and different reasons why they’re using social media, I think it’s more of like just don’t get too into it, is probably what I would say.

And just double checking what people are saying, like if someone says this, just look at the, you know, other side of the story, like. I’ll give an example, like, you know, a lot of people were saying some things about, you know, Donald Trump and all that kind of stuff or about Biden. I actually don’t actually go and read Fox News, like I don’t, I will read New York Times because I already know what New York Times is going to say, but I want to see what the opposition is saying because that is what I want to see what they’re saying and what they’re thinking because that keeps me in tune with why they feel a certain way. And I think that is a much more healthier way of approaching things is that you want to you want to see the other side and you have to, it’s pretty hard because going to see the other side isn’t give like election that you normally would not do because you’re just consuming content like entertainment.

You’re not actively thinking about stuff. But for me in order to have like I don’t have to have an opinion but for me to like understand what’s going on in the world like I try to get that other side and so I will reform the fox news even though I may disagree with it or agree with it doesn’t really matter. It’s just seeing those other prey perspective and it’s very easy to do that right now extremely easy and you just identify what your opposition or what are the different places in terms of like websites and then you just go online every now and then just want them just read it and you’ll see what they said.

You mentioned that you are in social media previously. Were you one of those regular social media users?

So I never used social media. I had a company before that helps people grow their social media. It was like a masculine bro and I saw kind of you know how people were using social media to grow their business and really the efficacy of that really, you know what was going on and like what worked, what didn’t I just saw all sides of that and that really helped me learn a lot about it and therefore got very disenchanted about it.

Well coming back to Remo, would you like to just tell us about what you do, and then also regarding the inspiration for the company, what’s your take on social and how let’s say negative it is? Did that inspire you regarding the creation of your company?

Yeah, it did. So because of the lack of authenticity and the lack of conversation that social media has. I also had a company at the time where it was fully remote before the pandemic and through that because we were about working next to each other, the concept of like getting to know each other and have an authentic conversation. It was very difficult and so I started to create this product where it was to help people have health in conversations and that’s kind of like how it started. And so what I started building was a virtual office just for my change to solve the problems of hallway conversations, getting to know each other you know happy hours, you know all these Zoom social activities that we’re all having nowadays.

So we created this before the pandemic to help solve our problems. And then after that I had my mission which was how do you create authentic conversations that drive meaningful relationships? And what I realised was that a lot of these authentic conversations don’t necessarily happen at work. They do sometimes happen at work but not at the frequency or the depths that you would need. So obviously, we all know that we create relationships at work. But the amount of time spent on creating those relationships is actually not as much as we think. So I’ll give you a good example, relationships at work are actually I believe I believe that it’s not just the collaboration part because when you’re collaborating with something you’re talking about work. So you do learn about them and who they are. How do you collaborate with them? But you may not know who. Yes. You know about how they work but that you don’t know who they are. Like you don’t know how many can they have unless you asked they have a dog would like to eat.

You know them as a person. That typically happens at lunch or after work during happy hour now. So that’s why for me lunch is actually really important. Sometimes shared meal, right? And it’s funny because sharing a meal is like one of the most critical things about human chewing culture, Every culture cares. We’ll talk about food at a certain point and food is actually the conduit to allow people to learn about each other. So when you’re talking over food, you’re not talking about work. What did you last weekend? Oh, how is your wife? Oh you went on a great trip there. Then that’s when the authentic conversation actually happens, you get to know each other more better. And when you have lunch one hour a day after three or four months, that is actually where the relationship is built over the course of time of two, three, four months. So when I realised that plus that you develop relationships at events when you get a chance to talk to each other, not about work or also maybe about content or challenges that you personally have.

I found that’s actually way more effective to solve my vision than the virtual office and that’s when I decided to visit it. It was just a much more efficient and effective and scalable way to do it.

You mentioned Covid. How has that been for your business?

I mean, not bad. I mean definitely nothing to complain about. It’s definitely been a roller coaster where, you know, we had to go through a lot of learnings and scaling pains and trying to figure out now who are our customers? To be honest, like, you know, yes, you could argue that it was really great for our business, but I would argue that. Well, I mean to a certain extent it is, but I think right now I’d rather have the pandemic to finish. I’d rather get to the new normal, whatever that is. I’d rather get there faster because there’s a high level of uncertainty during where we are right now.

So I call it Covid purgatory and where we just don’t know, you know what’s going on? Like we are doing physical events. Are we not like what’s gonna be the Delta variant? Oh my God, there’s so much, you know, there’s so many cases, you know mask on mask off? Like what are we doing? And that uncertainty makes it very, very difficult to try to figure out how to scale and grow your business beyond that because you know, it just presents a moving target. And so yes, it’s been good in some ways, but I think we’re all ready for that party to be over.

You also mentioned in your message that, well we’re using a Zoom and how everyone sort of had to do these types of calls but it’s lost some authenticity. Have you got any advice on perhaps how to put that back in? How to make everyone over video a bit more authentic?

Yeah, I mean it depends on the meeting. it depends on the goal like what it is like is it a webinar or is it like a small group meeting? You know for small group meetings, I think typically that’s a meeting. It’s a small meeting, right? A large meeting or a webinar or something that I can share a lot more about how to make that better when you have a lot of people is very important. I think content used to be the king but the new king is interaction. That is actually what you need because when people are not interacting, they’re looking at their email, they’re looking at something else. They’re leaning backwards. They’re not leaning forwards, engaging small group meetings. You don’t have that problem because it’s small but large groups, you will have that problem.

And so interacting with them means that there’s a lot of – I can give you a few tricks here or pretext a few ideas. One is that you question the audience and you bring them up to ask the question. They could ask the question when you ask them to come up and you make that into a conversation. That’s one. Two is you have networking before and after your webinar for the content and the content needs to be as small as possible, 20 minutes, and you have interactions on both sides. Why, because now people are not only networking and talking about what you’re saying, that makes whatever you’re saying, not only they’ll remember it more but also they can apply it and that application causes you to make it have a much more stronger impression. And the third reason why is that you can’t talk to everyone at large events, right? Let everyone else talk to each other and let them do all the interaction and you can kind of moderate by going into different groups and talking to them. This allows people to essentially get to know you, get to know other people, it’s more of like a real event. I was smart but I don’t know if we have time.

Well, I did want to ask you about, you’ve had some rapid growth to over 100 employees and I guess I’d like to ask you about how that was and how you might give some advice to others who are growing in that sense because I think it’s quite an important topic for other business owners?

Yeah, I mean it was really challenging. That was really, really challenging like the typical start-up rules that people taught me and people say they just went out the door. I just have to go. It’s like I had this book, start out handbook. I just chucked it out the window because everything that it said did not match, it did not work, frankly. I think anything that happens in hyper scale the rules are different and so there are no fast rules anymore and you need to really think about what are your priorities and what are you optimising for?

And you really have to focus on what basically like creates what moves the needle and trying things quickly and changing them all the time. We went through so much change like every week and every other week we’re changing things so it’s just constant change again and again and again and then Yeah, so that I would share that for the people that going through that I think it’s trying to identify just when, when you’re out of such a fast growing pace. I think hiring really, really good people. This problem, I mean it sounds so cliche, but I mean it’s purple people really true is you have to quite a higher as good as you can because it really make a difference because when things really, really fast, you’re unable to scale yourself. So the only way to scale yourself is to hire other people. Try your best to hire as many people as possible if you can’t, it’s okay to settle a little bit, but once the growth is finished you need to go and clean up, not clean up, but you have to like figure out if those people can continue going with you or not because as a start-up grows, people are very good at certain things, but they may not be good at other things and it’s just part of the star of growth journey and you have to identify for the individuals that can fit in each of those stages and if you’ve hired a few people that you’re not, you didn’t think they’re as good of a fit as you would have liked or maybe.

Yeah, then you need to constantly evaluate your team and make sure that everyone’s the right fit. One of the things which you said in your answer was that you were continually changing or changing very, very regularly because you were growing so quickly. But one of the things that I don’t know whether it’s anecdotal, but I find that the bigger that you get as a company the more difficult it is to change things. Have you got any advice on how you implemented there?

Yeah, that’s very true. The bigger you get, the harder it is to change what and typically what that means is that like is that you need to find some sense of stability before you grow really big meaning that like you need to have part of market that you have found what it is that you need and then you can scale and then just go in that one direction, you can’t became in two directions if you’re, if you hired a large people, you’re trying to change the direction all the time, it’s becomes like the Titanic, it just takes, you know around, but you end up not going anywhere, you know this way, this way, this way is too slow and you end up going, just stay in the same place probably.

And so I think what a lot of companies do that I’ve seen is you’ve got to you know, break things down in order to build it back up. So I think that’s something that you have to do in order to make sure you stay involved. The second thing I think is you have to have people that are okay with uncertainty if you have people that are like, oh I have to know, X, Y and Z. I’m only going to do X, Y and Z. If you tell me this and I need to have clear instructions, those people will not be the right fit. So you need to find people that can be nimble like that and if everyone’s never like that, then at the scale of a much larger company you might be able to retain that nimbleness because everyone is very used to being nimble.

Well, I can see, I mean I think based on the speed of the growth and also the size of the team, I can imagine that you’re very good at hiring, would you say?

That’s correct.

And also how did you go about doing that if you were to advise someone how to hire you know an effective team or great people, what would you say to them?

For me, I think I really like giving people tests. You test them and you test them for the job, they’re doing not for what they say, what they the test. Number one and then number two is that when you hire there are some questions that I ask that kind of makes you get a good sense of what they are like. So I hire people who are very proactive, people who are not a hustle meeting like getting stuff done and they iterate quickly and that’s typically what I’ve seen, the most effective. and I’ve also been able to and those people you can like ask them to do a test or ask them on the spot, like you know what are some of the things that they’ve done that has shown like a high speed of testing or doing something.

I think those are some areas. The only other I can think of is like is when asking questions is like really just digging really deep, you don’t really have to know what like the topic really all you need to do is just keep asking deeper and deeper and deeper, like why did you do this, what you just did you do this? Is this your idea? How did you implement that? How did you like it is how they talk about it because someone who relied on someone else will not be going to deepen enough in the details. So someone who is able to go deep into details and say it and say that they came up with something, they executed it, They did. That is so they could say that oh I develop this idea only. What was the idea? How do you think of it? Why do you think of it as you test it? I don’t have to know anything about anything. I just need to know what their thought process and the actions that they did make sense. That’s how I find good people in general. Of course it doesn’t always work, You can never be 100% good at hiring.

So you know there’s always like a fair share of and there’s always not enough time to interview too. Not every person rebuilds that those elements immediately. Some people take longer to reveal it, so people have much earlier to reveal it and sometimes just don’t have enough time. Thank you for the answer. Do you mind sharing the type of tests that you’ve done previously and how it went? Yeah, so for example, for marketing, like I have tasks for marketing, like developing a funnel or developing a marketing foothold, developing content, like a test where like okay, we need 5000 leads, tell me how you gonna get it and go get it in this target market. give me the leads to me and put in this, appreciate another one is like here’s some of our Google analytics data that we modify and then tell me what you think is this data telling you because that’s basically what they would do every day. And so it’s very simple. You take tasks that you’re doing or someone else is doing. You just package that, you just tell that person to do it and see how well they do it and how well they do it without context and if they don’t and I typically find people who like they’re willing to go out of the box, like thank you. Things like, for example, oh I found out your website has this error and don’t tell me about it or I might put a mistake inside some of the test, like the link is wrong or something, they come back as an anchor link is wrong or I figured out what was wrong with the link and I fixed it, I was able to do it. That’s really good. Like they tell you they fixed it. They say, oh yeah, like by the way, made an error here, but I fixed it. So I usually try to like find these type of people interesting. I like the link part and you could potentially, I don’t know if you did or not, but you could potentially say in the link, if they fixed it, make sure you mentioned that you’ve seen this page or something. But yeah, yeah, great information.

Thank you for sharing that. I guess the only other observation that I wanted to talk to you about was in your kind of list of things that you do or your profile, if you like, you got a lot of different stuff going on or at least you’ve done a lot of different things. Why do you think the words, all the phrase that it makes me think of as serial entrepreneur, what do you think you are that way? And have you got anything to share on doing lots of different things?

They seem very different, but actually one thing leads to the next so I can draw a line across all of them and say why, what they do there that led me to the next thing will be the next, uh, the next thing. So for me, I think the reason why is that there’s something which I kind of personally think it’s really important that we import from my journey is the ability to build more capacity or to roll a snowball downhill. You figure that way. So at the beginning you’re rolling the snowball up, gain the ball bigger and being a bear, but eventually the hill will kind of, so this way and then we’ll go down.

So you just got to keep on buoyant, make the ball bigger and bigger and bigger. And at each business that I’ve done, I’ve been able to roll that ball bigger and bigger. Either it’s too make a little money, some money or gain relationships or a gay network or gain something knowledge that by the time I the hill becomes you rolling up to the top, then it begins to become more downhill, All of the hustle is done usually. And then it gets easier from there. Yeah, all the hustles done and just have to learn um, a lot in order to get their experience does obviously give you, you know, the ability to pick the right things to find the right people to increase your luck. So for me, it’s like, you know, you’re a fisherman that goes out with your nets every day to go fishing right?

And at the beginning we have a net that might be like 57 m by 50 cm and throwing it out and try to really back in so small, the fish just kind of like flat, you know, get back out right every day, you’re doing that then every day you, you weave your net to be a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger holes a little bit smaller than not that big and you keep on, we’ve you keep on leaving it bigger, bigger, bigger over time that eventually your net is so massive that when you’re really back in, you actually catch that fish and these holes are small enough that the fish doesn’t go through the whole back into the ocean. And I think, yeah, and that’s kind of building capacities, another technology for building capacity and so doing that enough times is what eventually creates that ability for you to manufacturing your own look because it still is luck. The fish don’t have to go into your, your net. but now you just have a better way of cafeteria who doesn’t love a good fisherman analogy?

Right, That’s right. What are your goals?

I think for me, it’s creating authentic conversation for me is what’s really lacking as we live in a much more technological world and I think like that is my fault. How do you create those conversations that create those relationships? Because at the end of the day humans are humans, we all thrive off of relationships. That’s what makes life, you know interesting I guess so to speak. Good about and I think like that to me is really like the core of what says human and how do we use technology to kind of get that in general? And I think really, how do I scale Remo in order to do that in a very effective way, not just for events but for conversations that exist in other realms of the way, how we converse, like shopping, education, sales, you know, anything humans have conversations, how do we start figuring out how to make those conversations better across the board online.

And are you still in all of the various businesses you’ve been in or did you exit some of those by accident? What was that like? Probably none for this cause, but each one has a good story. Each one is like it’s moving from one job the next, you know, it’s bitter sweet. It’s sometimes a struggle. it’s relationships because you build relationships with the people that you have in the business or with others. it’s a change, I would say the closest thing that it would be like is like changing a job, just changing a different job and those, those are the moments in your life which I feel like frankly are probably the most memorable to be honest, the change is definitely the most memorable because there’s such drastic changes and so it ends one chapter because another and I think that that that that is a chapter, you know, it’s a bookmark or it’s a one direction and if you’ve got a planned exit for remote or is that I don’t know, confidential or not on, not on the table at the moment.

It’s not on the table at the moment. I mean, I think I still have a lot left to do with Remo. So you know, and even if there wasn’t actually, I would probably find something similar around that realm anyway, like the good news about my kind of goal is super bright, it’s pretty bright. Do you think about it? So it would probably manifest itself in some other way.

Well, it’s a meaningful goal, so thank you for sharing it. Is there anything that you’d like to mention that you think would be valuable for the audience that I haven’t asked you about today?

Yeah, I mean, I think virtual events in interaction is really critical when it comes to how do you engage with your customers you’re engaging with? And in general, like if you want to, if you have a goal and you want engagement, most of us want engagement. It’s now becoming harder and harder to engage with people online and nothing can replace kind of that human interaction and so human interaction does take a little more work. But it’s actually the most real and the most relatable. And so it applies to almost any kind of media conversation or whatever that you have, the more people can see if your authentic analysed.

And this DNA authenticity has been more important because of all this, you know fake news and this information it is in my opinion, a business competitive edge to be authentic you know and there it’s a good place to end. So thank you for all the information today and all the value I think provided some great content. Where is the best place for people to find you?

It’s my LinkedIn. And then my name Ho Yin Cheung. I’ll send it to you after, Thomas. You can put it in.


Thank you very much.