Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the podcast today, we have Dierdre Tshien. Dierdre, welcome.
Thanks, Thomas. Thanks for having me.
It is my pleasure. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, for sure. So my name’s Dierdre Tshien. I am currently founder and CEO of Capsho. Capsho is both software and coaching that helps entrepreneurs not only turn their stories into a bank of captions and emails, but actually turn followers into buyers on social media. So that’s what we do now. Gosh, a little bit about me, I’ve been in entrepreneurship. I’ve been an entrepreneur for the last almost 10 years, almost a decade. I live in New York City right now. I grew up, you might be able to offer my accent in Australia. So I’m originally from Sydney, Australia and I moved to New York about three years ago. It’s been heaps of fun since, as you can imagine, we’ve the pandemic hitting, but yeah, it’s been a wild ride.
You’ve got businesses in Australia still, is that right? I do, yes. So our first business that we started is we actually started hospitality, which I would kind of recommend not starting if you’re gonna try entrepreneurship, do not sign hospitality, but it was yeah, like if nothing else, it definitely teaches you, you know, tenacity resilience, all of the really hard things. So we started a dessert bar called the chocolate, grew that to five locations. Started a burger restaurant alongside that stacks on burgers and we have two locations and yeah, they’re still operating in Sydney. So what makes you say that you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t start in that particular industry then? I mean interesting. Yeah, and maybe because we didn’t even have a background hospitality. So my husband and I started it and again, as I said, no background. So I am first migrant, you know, my parents came from Malaysia and I was on that academic track, you know, did all the things, I learned how to play piano.
I got cheated from third grade, went to the top school. The one thing I did not do was do medicine, which my parents were disappointed about, but I did do a law degree. And I went into banking, I worked in the investment bank. So it was, you know, down the line like that, that corporate path. And my husband, he was actually studying medicine funnily enough, but he was hating it and I knew that corporate wasn’t going to be, you know, my, my long term in my long-term plan. So we were kind of in this place where we didn’t really know what we’re gonna do and how we’re going to do it, but he found we moved out and he fell in love with baking and I, I mean really driven by the fact that I love my desserts and so he just started experimenting and baking and trying to make all of our favourite things. Really, one of them was this molten chocolate lava cake that we used to travel, you know, 30 minutes for in Sydney to this rustic Italian restaurant and he was, you know, trying to perfect that and from there really was how the chocolate came to be because we just decided, you know what, like, he has a passion, He’s really enjoying that doing that.
I didn’t really have, you know, my own thing, but I knew that I wanted to go into business. We didn’t know what hospital, like we had no idea what we’re getting into. We had no idea the amount of upfront costs it takes to beat out of place. So we were kind of get ourselves in a lot of debt from day zero. We didn’t know the world of, you know, leases and you know, like signing up to specifically, like, a retail lease. We didn’t know any of that, but we did it anyway. And honestly, if we had known, I don’t know whether we would have done it, but, but honestly, I’ve not regretted it. I mean, that’s why I’m kind of Italian cheese, say, you know, don’t start in hospitality, but honestly like this amount that I’ve learned through this journey, I would not have done it any other way. So how does it look now? Is that still one of your businesses? Yes. So throughout, yeah. So the journey is, we grew the chopped pot relatively quickly and I think that in itself was a really big lending as well because I don’t know, call it ego, call it me being so driven by goals, by, you know, wanting to achieve goals.
But we had in mind that we wanted X number of stores by X date. And so that led us probably down a slightly wrong path in terms of just getting into pretty bad deals with landlords that in places that were just not right for us. And so we did have to close a couple just from that, like, so we literally had to fail them. and then, you know, some a couple of others at least it’s just ran out and we decided to not renew the lease especially because we were over here in New York. so we do have one location of chalk part still running and we still have the two stacks Umberger locations running as well. And the chopped part is like deserts or cafe or Yeah, so it dessert cafe I guess. So it does do you know, hot chocolates, coffees, other cold drinks. And but desserts is really the main thing that we offer. At what point did you decide to do that because you know, thinking about what the transition is there from law school to, you know, starting your own – there’s a disconnect there?
Yes. So I guess it really like I went into corporate. As I mentioned, I was working in a bank and at the time I was actually fortunate enough to be working on a rather large project. It was one of those, you know, once in a decade, kind of regulatory reforms that was happening in Australia. And so because I had this particular experience I was put, I was putting to lead a particular stream of work and so this project, this program of work had visibility all the way up to the CEO it was quite a big deal and so I say that was really fortunate because I was but I was sitting in this room these rooms with like super senior people and just seeing, you know, the politics that was happening the back channelling like all of these things like, you know, and I just did not, I kind of knew from there that corporate, like corporate wasn’t just something that I just did not want to stay in. and so yeah, the transition to do this was literally just because ash, my husband had a passion for creating and making them and I had a passion for eating them.
So that was simply, there was really no other, you know, at the time thought put into it really, it was just like, I think this is something that we can do and why not try, we didn’t have, you know, anything holding us back. It’s not like we had a family, we had, you know, you know, other obligations, yeah, we just decided to go for it. and yeah, it was tough, It was really, really tough, but we knew we had to make it work. So that was yeah, that was kind of that the early journey and what made you decide to move to New York from Australia. Yes, so this is we probably, gosh, now four years now ago, I was actually, let me tell you, let me tell you the story. I think I startled awake, and it was a Thursday night actually. I remember I startled awake – for some reason and realised that Ash wasn’t in bed yet. And so I kind of like stumbling out and I’m like, what are you still doing up and come to bed?
And he was sitting at the dining room table on his laptop and he’s like, he was just ashen, like, he was just, and I was like, what’s going on? He’s like, no, no, don’t worry, go to sleep, like we’ll talk about in the morning and I’m like, there’s no way that I’m going to sleep now, like what’s happening? And he basically said, yeah, he just got off the phone with someone else from the team in our city store, so that was our biggest, you know biggest grossing store and he was saying, she was saying she had raised to him that she didn’t know how it was happening but she believed that our store manager was stealing from us and so he was like so ash had spent pretty much the last couple of hours looking through like looking back and looking at printing cell system, all of that to figure out how he was doing it and he finally figured out how and then when he was looking at sort of the numbers and it was just racking like we’re talking hundreds of thousands of dollars that was being stolen essentially and so that was that kind of set off like you know in my mind it’s funny when something like that, you know you almost need this pattern interrupt because probably enough we had kind of built a hamster wheel for ourselves, you know like we were just doing and doing and doing and going so I kind of like wanted to leave with other hamster wheel of corporate but we just found ourselves in this in in one and so having something like that happen, we kind of really looked at everything and was like is this what we want to be doing with our lives right now, like is this where we want to be, is this what we want to be thinking about and being consumed with and it came to the point where like no like this isn’t what I want to be doing, like I’ve always had aspirations to live and work overseas and so it was like obviously went through a lot of discussions and, and talking and we were just like, you know what efforts like let’s just go at this at the same time I was also, I actually started on a new business idea with another co-founder who I had met at in corporate actually and we were working on a fashion technology idea and so I was kind of like, well what better place the, you know the coming together of fashion and technology than New York and so yeah, we, so Ash and I, we made the decision to move and when I spoke to my co-founder boner I was like this is kind of what we decided to do, I’m sure we can still make it work, you know, I’ll just do, I’ll like target northern hemisphere, I don’t know and you’ll, and you’ll do southern hemisphere and you know, we’ll try to make it work, but in the end I was just like, you know what, you just want to come with us, like well let’s just give it a go and yeah, she said yes.
And so I came with my husband, my cat and my co-founder. Just touching on the experience you had when an employee was stealing from you. What are your thoughts going through that now? What do you learn from that? And obviously, what kind of action did you take? Yes, wow. What did I – okay, so going through it. I think the hardest part isn’t even about the money. I mean, obviously the money stings like heck, but it’s really more the betrayal. And it sounds, like, really dramatic when I say it like that, but you know, because you kind of go, well it’s just employing your team, but you know, we were still a small team, you know, it feels small, like we did have about 40 you know, total team members, but in terms of our management team, like the people who we really trusted that was really small and he, we were basically training him and coaching him to essentially become almost like ashes right-hand man, like he was going to become essentially, you know, second in charge in the business.
And so that was the level of trust that we had in him and, and then you have found out that someone like that who we, we like to think we’re really giving to, would do something like that was a big betrayal of trust. And s,o that was really, really, really hard thing to, I think wrap our minds around. And then, you know, coupled with that is that we take such pride in our culture and our, even like even our judgment in character, like, you know, we take a lot of pride in that and almost to feel like we were so like to know actually I should say that we were so wrong about someone, it’s just like you just start to question everything, you know, we were questioning ourselves, we were questioning like literally other people on the team because we were like how did this get so out of hand, how was he able to like, surely there were other people in on it. So then you know, like that started to permeate through to the team as well and it was just not like all of that was just it was just a yeah, it was, I don’t know, it was just this snowstorm of like a lot of things happening both emotionally and you know, like team and like I would just be walking down the street and then I suddenly be like crying for some reason.
It was like, you know, because I think no matter where the betrayal comes from it’s still you still feel it, you still really feel it in your gut. So I think yeah, so feeling wise that it was, it was really, really bad at the time, Looking back, I mean obviously we have the benefit of hindsight and we have the benefit of having been able to go past, get past that and like, would I change that? Probably like, you know, I’m a big believer that everything does happen for a reason. you know, if that hadn’t happened, it wouldn’t have jolted us out of, you know, the state that we were in, it wouldn’t have probably led us to this move to the other side of the world, which I’m so thankful for. it wouldn’t have led to a lot of opportunities to like what I get to do now, you know, all of the, all of where I am, where I am now, Ashes, where he is now, because of what happen. So I can’t Iraq, I regret that if that makes sense. So what do you say to, let’s say the person who perhaps hasn’t put safeguards into their business through just being busy and you might be facing that same thing.
What advice do you give them? Yeah, it’s a hard one, like, because we never we never put that those safeguards in because we just, we didn’t even come to mind, I mean, call it naïve, but like, it just did not even cross our minds that that would happen. and so I don’t know, like, you know, looking back, I mean, yes, obviously we should have, but I don’t know if, like, unless we probably would have if we were told that was probably the only reason why I couldn’t, we couldn’t have thought of it because, you know, you just don’t know what you don’t know. and we never would have thought that that would happen. So I definitely would encourage, like, you know, if, encourage people, especially if they’re working in like a cash kind of business, I mean now we’ve actually like we’ve completely moved away from cash in our businesses because of pretty much because of that, we’re all now completely cashless business even though it’s hospitality. So yeah, you know, as much as possible that if you can, I mean I know that the pandemic has meant that a lot of businesses have moved cashless just because you know, no one wanted to actually handle physical things but that you know, if we’re talking about this specifically then that was a really great way to essentially system ISAT so that there was there wasn’t that kind of risk now there’s always gonna be a risk in business in every business and there’s always going to be an element of like will your staff be, you know, will your team be the types of people that you think that they are, there’s kind of no going around that I know for me also part of the reason why we knew we had to move was because we could very easily go into the micro-manage into the, you know, we will like everything is going to be, we’re going to like close every single loop in every single gap, but I also know from experience of being, you know, having worked in corporate stuff that the worst place and the most disempowering place to work in is somewhere where you don’t have the latitude, you are micro-managed all of that.
And so I knew as well that we had to remove ourselves so that we didn’t get into that into that place. That’s the thing, it’s like, how do you balance like trying to mitigate as many risks as possible without, you know, clipping the wings of your team, because ultimately, if their wings are clipped, you cannot grow and you cannot scale, like that’s, that’s what it comes down to, you have to have a level of trust in other people, fortunately, or unfortunately, like that’s just, you know, and yeah, that means that you are going to get bitten in the back side every now and then, but I think that kind of has to come with, you know, the joys of entrepreneurship and growing a business, so you’re in New York and remind me that, did you say it’s a fashion business? So we yes, so we came over here with the fashion technology idea and we really hit the ground running with, like testing it because we didn’t want to, you know, put a lot of money into development without it being something that we knew would solve a problem.
Now, it stemmed from a problem that I had a for sure, but I didn’t, I don’t, I don’t know whether it was a big enough problem or be a problem that other people would, you know, like want to potentially pay for a solution for. So our hypothesis was that our target customers would be either like young professionals or college or university students. So, you know, we went to Columbia University, went to N. Y. U. Campuses, even Wall Street and we just like started talking to women. Like it was um, you know, it’s so, it’s so bizarre because I’m actually really big introvert. So it was, it’s actually really like, it took a lot. It took a lot for us to like, especially for me to just go up to a stranger and be like, hey, my name’s Dadri and we’re doing this thing. And would you mind, you know, stirring a few minutes for us, but we did, we did that. We had a lot of really great conversations. We even went back with a prototype to get these to get them to, um, you know, test it for us.
And funny enough, he got to a point. So I was actually, we had to – I go to my husband, I have to go to London. So we were in London when I hopped on a call with my co-founder. I was working on kind of the back end, smarts, like our sort of, I guess machine and I think I got to the point where because we were just doing, and you know, that was all great. But stepping back and I think almost like going like almost leaving physically like going on a bit of a trip elsewhere, forced me to step back and look at it and be like, do we think that we are actually solving a big enough problem? do we actually think that this is something that people are going to pay for? And it was really hard discussion to have? Luckily you know one is just like amazing, we’re totally always on the same page and we got to the point that the decision that while it was a problem, it probably wasn’t big enough that people were willing to change their habits.
Four. so they were already solving for this for the problem in other ways and they it was probably there wasn’t a big enough incentive for them to change the way that they were doing that. So we actually decided to fail the business? So yes and then so they were like oh gosh what are we gonna do now? We’re in a totally different country where you know but you know and talk about everything happening for reasons. So we were actually at the same time that we were talking to potential customers, we were also talking to boutiques and brands because you know we kind of needed both sides of the marketplace and every time you know we have spoken to them, the one thing, we were like what is your biggest problem, what is the one thing that we can help you solve for? And for them it was always acquisition, acquisition was the number one big thing which totally makes sense like for any business really acquisition is such a big pain point. And so we actually went back to them and we were like we’ve decided not to go ahead with this idea but how about if we just work with you on, you know because we knew quite a bit about marketing anyway, you know about like running ads and also from a boutique perspective, I call it the live conversion method but essentially doing live virtual trunk shows and things like that.
So we actually started working with some boutiques and brands and from there it kind of like so we kind of built this cause the agency we didn’t even intend to but we kind of built this this thing up to a point where we were like we you know I think every business gets to this point where you have to make a decision as to whether you want to keep scaling the thing that you’re in or whether you want to be leveraging your time in a different way. So for us we actually wanted to start to work with people who were a little bit more in the beginning of the journey. so we went into coaching instead and coaching helping to coach e commerce business owners about please, you know everything that essentially marketing that we had, that we were doing for across a few different brands, and that was how he fell into coaching And then gosh, like fast forward, that was probably like 18 months ago and then we, I kind of like, again we were the same thing that, you know, it felt reminiscent of that hamster wheel again, like we were just doing the things because we had fallen into it in a way and there was kind of like no there was no significant reason to like pull us out of there, but because I had been in a similar place like that before, I think I kind of knew the signs, like I kind of knew when I got this feeling that I was feeling a little bit misaligned with, you know, where we’re heading and what we were doing.
And in the meantime before that when we were working with clients, one of the biggest pain points that kept coming up time and time again was around content creation for social media because again as a business, we all know, we have to have some kind of social media presence, nothing else will when we googled, you know, we look legitimate, but it was a struggle for businesses, especially when you’re like sort of a one-man band to actually be able to spend time on what you, you know, fulfilment and on all these other things when you’re having to spend all these this time on creating content and stuff like that. So we actually started building another software, I was just building the engine again and behind it around that where entrepreneurs can essentially tell their stories and it’s kind of like, it was really great a client put it this way, it was kind of a mix of journal prompts and mad Libs, like you kind of like answer particular questions that former story, and then at the back of that creates the software itself, creates a bank of captions, anything else for you to use, and so we were working on that and you know, and then came this, this feeling of like, yeah, I just, I feel misaligned with, you know, our coaching business and what we’re trying to do there, and I think a lot of that was just probably the burnout that I was kind of feeling, trying to like keep on top of everything and trying to be ahead of the game as well, like trying to constantly be you know, looking at the, and in e-commerce, it’s like never ending, not to say that other industries aren’t, but especially e-commerce, because it’s like, you have so many different platforms and so many different, you know, that you have to just stay on top of it, like that was burning me out.
And so I was actually at this at this event funnel hacking live, I don’t know if it’s Russell Bronson’s event and on the last day he had Tony Robbins speaking and Tony Robbins was talking about the three points of focus that you need to have in order to have a fulfilling life and he was just even talking about the first one when I had my own epiphany because obviously this was on my mind, even if it’s subconsciously because it wasn’t like I was consciously thinking what am I gonna do now, what should we do? Like, you know, because we were just still just doing, we’re still doing the things, but I think in the back of my mind I just had this feeling that something wasn’t quite right and so he was talking about focusing like when a lot of us focus a lot on what’s missing and not what we have and that made me realise that that’s what I’ve been doing for the longest time, I was constantly focusing what was missing and that’s where the burnout was, was happening versus what I have and what I have, like in that moment, what really stood out for me was that I am this introvert, I am this person with all these flaws and all of these that I had turned into excuses for why I couldn’t do things or what, what was holding me back and things like that and yet even so I was still able to build successful businesses, I was still able to, you know lead teams inside corporate, like even though I wasn’t the last person, I wasn’t the one who was you know dominating a meeting, like none of that, but I was still able to do these things even though I was exquisite, even though I was, you know, and so what I made me realise was that you know, we are all remarkable right in our own way, because I know for me, I never used to enjoy sharing my story because I was like I always thought, well who would care like who, who would care about what I have to say, like you know, what do I even have anything worthy of sharing anyway, but you know the, but for me it was like, but I do like I am, I am remarkable in my own way, but so is everyone else, so like literally everyone, everyone’s lives is just a series of stories, they just have to have the confidence to be able to share it.
And so that’s what then led us on this other part because I was like okay, we have to do this, we have to go down this where this is leading us, which is, I mean thankfully, you know aligned with Capsho is aligned with our software, but very much more about how do we help entrepreneurs especially find their remark ability and then share that so that they can actually generate leads will build their credibility. get visibility and reach and generate leads ultimately to make sales. So the epiphany from, well, what Tony Robbins said made you think that you wanted to pursue the, the caption company more, is that accurate? Yeah and yeah, so definitely Capsho and definitely, but how do we do that in a way that because we’re all, you know part of me as well as like I am also a lazy, you know I call my call myself a lazy ceo call myself a sloth boss but in the right way right like because I want to be efficient. I want to be systemised. I want to automate. I want to do all the things because you know the hustle isn’t really quite what the hustle she was, you know 10 years ago when it was like To be a successful entrepreneur, you have to be working 24 hours seven days a week.
Now it’s like well, we all, I think, appreciate and know that we need about life, like the only way that we can actually grow as a successful companies if we look after ourselves and so how do we do that intelligently. So part of you know the Capshod like the software is that is part of like automation and making things easier, but we also know that there’s so much more that wraps around social media, There’s so much more that wraps around lead generation than just hoping that little work and a lot of that comes down to systemisation delegation and delegation to really cost effective resources. I’m talking about you know VHS who has who have really great English, who will just head down and do the things that’s how we’ve been able to generate a lot of our leads organically and still do but we have a full system so that I personally only spend like an hour and a half to two hours a week on social media activities.
So things that I need to do personally for because my face is still, you know the brand like so I still have to be in content. I start to create the stuff but honestly like the type of content that all comes from my VA team like from my VA. Like the editing that you do that. even caption writing comes from software, so I literally spend You know 15 minutes writing the thing and then you know it comes a bank of captions legion my via does that like literally everything else my via does so that I don’t even have to touch my social media. and that is really what I wanted to empower, you know, how do we have entrepreneurs realised remark ability because they need to, they need to realise that the way that they create connections is through their stories, through the experiences through their perspective, but then also generate the leads without having to be, you know, consumed by how, by social media and, and the suck, almost the time-consuming suck of it.
That was kind of what I wanted to bring together. So that’s, that’s what we’re working on now. So how old is cap show and how’s it going? Yeah, so, um, the software itself, we launched October of last year, so it’s not very, um, not, not very old. We’ve launched our coaching program in December, so last month actually, so also not very not very old, but it’s going phenomenal, like I think that the message is landing like and, and the fact that I feel so aligned to it because this is exactly where I like, it’s just made, it just feels like, I mean flow like everything is just that much feels that much simpler easier because you know, again, I’m focusing on what I have and not what’s missing and then when I can do that, everything just feels like it’s falling into place. Like when I speak to people, even when I think about, you know, we talk about messaging a lot, so, you know, you know, when I can, when I can talk to the symptoms so clearly, I can talk to the after point, I can paint the picture so clearly because it is, it is literally the journey that I went through myself.
You know, I didn’t intend for that to be the thing, but you know, on the other side of it, that’s just where and I, so everything just seemed to fall into place. Um, so I am really, really looking forward to this year because we just literally launched and we did a phenomenal, um, we phenomenal sales for, for launch. Um, but that’s launching it. So it’s a little bit different and we had like, ready and waiting audience as such, but now it’s really about, okay, how do we work off that base to keep growing it? Um, and really start to scale it, that’s after because this year. So, I mean, it reminds me of the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur, because entrepreneur is always sort of, I know that you’ve said that you’ve made a slight change in this, but they’re looking for problems to solve and they’re in lots of different businesses. So, you know, the business owner is one business typically and they’ll be in it for a long period of time. Whereas you’ve, you’ve done what, four businesses, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5 businesses.
And it makes me think, what have you got in store for the future? What are your thoughts there? Yeah, wow. Well, I know that this like Capsho is where I need to be right now. Like, I’m so excited about where we’re going to be taking the software. We’re gonna be taking investing. Obviously a lot of a lot more time and money into it this year. Right like it’s very it’s quite MVP right now so it’s literally like written you know you have to answer our questions and then it’s a pretty it’s why would I call the cat? Like it’s almost like template stylised in a way. Whereas we wanted to become a lot smarter, so have it genuinely AI driven. And from the perspective of like what is going to actually what does the data tell us about? What converts from a caption perspective from a copy perspective? So I’m really excited about that. And then on the on the front end, rather than because I know that people learn and interact differently.
So some people are like they do like writing. Whereas I know a lot of people are talkers, you know they prefer to verbalise. So we want to be able to have a mechanism where you know you can like either talking to it or upload a video or something and that will essentially transcribe and then come like at the back of that will come have captions created. So we have a lot of things anyway that I want to be working on for and to really make the software itself so much more powerful. So much more intuitive. So much more user friendly, so I’m really excited about that, I’m really excited about creating the next generation of sloth bosses, that’s kind of about our purpose, that’s kind of our goal is, you know, as I said, it’s not about the hustle anymore, like it’s about how do we become, how do we be intelligently lazy, you know, like, because we know that we need to look after ourselves, but hey, let’s do it in a smart way where we are leveraging data, we are leveraging people, we are leveraging systems to actually do the, take the right actions and do them in the right way, so that’s kind of what I’m really looking forward to as well.
So would you say those are your goals or have you got something? Yeah, from a business perspective? Yeah, for sure I am, I’m really, yeah, I really do. I so believe in, you know, that that next generation of sloth bosses, like, I really, really wanna and so I’m really pumped and so passionate about helping entrepreneurs in this way, because I think this is going to be a game changer for them, like to be able to have the permission to not do the 24/7 hustle, but also actually have the strategy, the systems and support the help on the ground and know how to do that is going to be, is I’m really excited about that, so if someone is watching this right now and they fit into the, the category of someone who is just working all the time, What do you say to them? Find a way tonight? Yeah, the burnout thing is real. You know, I’ve lived it for a long, long time because you know when we started our first business, I actually still had to work full time because we were in so much debt.
So I was like, you know, from corporate to night job, you know, we’ll leave the store at midnight, go to bed, wake up like it was just day after day. So I know how painful can be and how unsustainable it is. And the number one asset that you have in your business is you. So if you want to have any chance of success, you’ve got to, yeah, you’ve got to look after yourself and you’ve got to learn. Um, if you haven’t already had two systemised how to delegate um, and how to be okay with other people doing it. That might not be hundreds and you. It’s gonna be so much better for you to be able to create that kind of leverage because it just frees you up to be creative. Like that’s, that’s really where then your juices, juices gonna come from.
Great advice Deidre. Where’s the best place for people to find you and maybe try out Capsho? Do you have like a demo or not?
Yeah. So we do have a 14 day free trial that’s at capsho.com.
There’s also a demo video on that website. If you want to come along, I hold a free four-day scale, your final with social bootcamp, then definitely come along to that. capshounlocked.com/scale. Nice.
Thank you for coming on and telling your story. Lots of good learnings there.
Thank you. That was my absolute pleasure and thanks so much for having me on.