Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the podcast today, we have Paula Thomas. Paula, welcome.
Thanks Thomas, lovely to be with you.
Lovely to have you. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do?
Oh, I’d love to, Thomas, thank you. So I am certainly these days best known as show host for Let’s Talk Loyalty, which is a loyalty industry podcast dedicated to marketing professionals. So I’m super proud of it and as a fellow podcaster, I need to tell you how much work goes into that. I’ve been a podcaster for about two years, but before that I was consulting for loyalty programs. I would say for probably another 10 years. So I do know that industry extremely well and then lots of other varied things I would say in the background as well, so digital marketing, e commerce, a lot of airline experience. So yeah, I like variety Thomas is probably the best way to describe it. Well, the podcast is going on maybe 130 odd episodes for you now, so exactly what’s the best thing or one, Maybe a few of the best things that you learned from a from a guest or taken away from an episode.
Yeah, it’s a great question actually Thomas because I always start my show asking my guest what is their favourite marketing statistic. So my I suppose idea around that is first of all to learn something myself of course and I suppose for the audience as well just to add value for them just to give them something as an immediate hook, so they can decide if they like the sound of this guest or not. And I think to directly answer your question, my favourite one was something that’s becoming a very big issue actually, I think for big brands and certainly anybody running a loyalty program. And it’s the fundamental understanding Thomas about what is the purpose of a loyalty program because I think commercially what brands do is they invest quite rightly, of course, with an expectation of a return and that their customers will behave in more loyal weighs more profitable ways. So the statistics on the business side is that marketeers about 66% of us would say that a loyalty programs objective is for the customers to be loyal to us.
But actually it’s a very different story when you talk to consumers, When you ask a consumer what is the purpose of a loyalty program they say? And this is about 73%. So the majority would say that the objective and the purpose is so the brand can be loyal to them. So it’s almost like everybody is waiting for the other side to move first. So I think that’s something that really changed my perspective in terms of how do we position loyalty programs both internally and externally, What do you conclude from that dichotomy if you will? Well, I think as I was planning to, you know, see what we might be talking about today Thomas, it really reinforces, I think what you’re all about. So for me, loyalty is about a company’s integrity and how it can take care of its customers. And another of my guests action was reviewing one of my shows today and one of my guests just made this really super comment where he said, you know what customers are the only source of income for a company.
So why would you not want to be loyal to them to take care of them? And obviously, all customers are not equal. But for me, I really do believe that that’s absolutely the biggest learning is that mindset shift. So if I go into a management meeting now and they’re looking for reasons why they need a loyalty program, then I usually just kind of want to leave the room. I’m kind of thinking it’s not my job to convince you to be loyal to your customers. You know that should be the founding principle of why I might even be there. So yeah, I think that’s what I’ve taken away from that particular statistic. So regarding the podcast, just briefly, why do you do it, why do you podcast? It’s a great one, actually. I started it for two reasons. One was personal frustration in that I wasn’t getting to do all of the reading that the internet was offering me. Clearly it’s a big place and I was feeling under educated and not up to date on what was happening with, with loyalty marketing and I certainly felt that, you know, I had a lot of questions and I wanted to have access to other people’s brainpower and I suppose the second part of it was I was looking to do something that felt innovative, I’ve been doing a bit of work with the coach myself in terms of what my own values were, and I was just kind of desperate to do something that hadn’t been done before.
So let’s talk loyalty is actually the world’s first podcast for B2B loyalty marketing professionals. And there are other podcasts for consumer loyalty discussions, etcetera, and other topics I suppose like net promoter score have podcasts, but yeah, that’s, I think probably what I’m most proud of when I first started doing research on you in terms of your background and everything. I thought, all right loyalty programs and for whatever reason, the first thing that came into my head was like buying coffee, you know, the coffee card, when you buy five, you Get your sick three or whatever it might be. What do you make of those types of programs? And also have you got any innovative ones that you like to sort of share? It’s also a great question Thomas, I think you’ve been reading my mind, it’s where we do, we talked about this before because coffee is such a relevant topic in the whole loyalty industry and you’re absolutely right stamp cards, they were actually the very first I suppose mechanism.
And that business is used actually even in the 18th century, early 19th century and there were postal system so that green shield stamps which I think became very big in the UK at one stage as well. So stamp based loyalty is the simplest way I think particularly for small merchants to simply acknowledge that somebody has visited and being a customer on a certain number of occasions. The limitations I guess around stamps is generally you don’t get any data with them. Certainly the offline ones, there are obviously digital stamp based programs where you do get the data but certainly in the past that has been the biggest challenge. And they were also I suppose there was lots of risk of fraud. So you know if your friend happened to be behind the counter and he got to know you or she got to know you, they might stamp the card a few too many times. So it just became something that I think owners were a little bit uncomfortable with. And my favourite example, I suppose in terms of emerging models is again in coffee loyalty.
So what is happening both in the UK, in the US, and even in Scandinavia is the concept of a fixed price subscription to a coffee shop. So in the US, for example, it’s been led by a brand called Panera Bread which to be honest I haven’t heard about myself but it is a very big chain about two thousand stores. And they predominantly focused on the lunch market. So it certainly wouldn’t be well known obviously in coffee like Starbuck’s for example is the market leader. But what Panera Bread realised was that there was a huge underlying guilt that customers had because of the amount of money that they were spending on their coffee. And the research that they did showed that the average customer would spend about $1,200 a year buying, you know, lattes and cappuccinos going in and out of work perhaps. So as an alternative what Panera Bread decided to do through their loyalty program was to create a fixed price proposition for unlimited coffee.
So it’s $8.99 and you can go in as often as you want. There’s obviously terms and conditions in terms of frequency, but literally what they have reported back Thomas from a business perspective is that first of all the frequency of people going in has dramatically increased the cross sell the up sell. And also the brand metrics, you know really have gone through the roof And interestingly that same company also operates pretty much in the UK. So if I’m guessing correctly from your accent that that’s where you’re based then you might have seen pressure also talking about their £15 proposition. And I think, you know, it’s really very well timed around a pandemic. Dare I say it because the business is probably on its knees there. You know, if I was to guess from the outside, but from a customer perspective, it does build trust. So again, thinking about your values of ethical marketing and integrity, I really think customers can kind of go, okay fantastic, I’m happy to spend my 15 quid.
All I need is five coffees and I’m winning. So I think it’s a win/win situation. Yeah, I think I have seen more and more companies going to the subscription model. I think I might be wrong about this, but I think even audible is going to a subscription model where you get rather than using credits, which is what you previously did. You pay your subscription probably about the same amount and you can listen to as many podcasts as you want. So I think it is going lots of companies are using that. You’re absolutely right. And I’m not surprised to hear that audible might go that way. And certainly it would increase my listening of their products and we all know, I suppose books are sold on the basis of recommendations. So I’m pretty sure their business model is based around that. But I think what differentiate, you know, the examples that we’ve talked about is that there is a physical product that has to be produced. So I do think it’s a fairly simple model for a digital business, so we all know Netflix, for example, and you know, again consume as much as you want to, it’s the fact that you can now get something that has to be physically produced and could be very easily abused and so for that to be something as well and even, you know, I believe there’s examples in the car business where they’re starting to say pay a subscription, have access to a car, you know, maybe a sensible car during the week, a Porsche at the weekend and yeah, it fits a lot of the environmental concerns around driving and really just gives you access to products that you need at a certain level.
Have you got any thoughts on, because I was thinking about this from my perspective, because I’m sorry, I don’t have a hello T program for my company and obviously I went through the thoughts of what would it be and initially I was just thinking, you know, a certain number of months and you get a particular X item, for example. But I think I’ve heard you say in one of your episodes it’s almost very transactional if you will. So outside that thinking of like do a certain number of months and then get X, what, what am I missing there in terms of something more, should we say significant or meaningful from a, from a loyalty perspective? Yeah, it is a great question Thomas and the reason I didn’t call my podcast, let’s talk loyalty programs was because I don’t believe that you always need a program, so that is absolutely fundamental. so it comes back to loyalty as an emotion, loyalty as a mindset and loyalty as an intention.
So, for me, in a B2B world, which is clearly what you’re operating in, I think the first step is of course identify your best customers now, you might have some, all of, you know, the same price plan or fixed services or retainers, but there is almost always in my experience and 80 20 So 80% of your revenue is coming from 20% of your customers. So the first step I would always say is be super clear and do the, you know, the accounting work to make sure that you’re absolutely clear on who those people are and then very simple things and it might not be covid friendly at the moment, but you know, taking your top customers out to lunch together, maybe as a group of, you know, 10 people who are all, you know, obviously running digital campaigns all of a sudden, makes them feel like they’re part of your world, they’re part of your industry, they are valued and it is just a lunch, you know, some from your perspective, it’s easy to manage from a time perspective from a cost perspective and you never know what extraordinary connections might happen for those people between each other because I think one of the absolutely essential upcoming principles that we need to talk about is community and I really feel that loyalty programs have this default to being just a bidirectional marketing.
So yes, it used to be the brand of the customer. Increasingly we’re seeing the customer being able to connect back with the branch where it’s you know, maybe social media, but brands like IKEA for example, I interviewed on my air show and I was really impressed with their thinking and it was a really, I suppose around the idea that IKEA has a lot of challenging products, certainly for people like me it’s part of the cost base and I know why that is the case, but people who love IKEA products can advise each other, you know on how to build the desk or you know, organise the room or style the bathroom. So they are certainly building a community of people who want to be connected to each other based on a common love of that that style of product. So I definitely think for your business, you know, points are very transactional, that is the limiting factor and we talk much more about emotional connection and to me that really is something that can be just very simply human.
So I mean in summary, my interpretation of that would be not just thinking about giving things, but also thinking about improving the relationship essentially. So picking the best ones like you said, and then finding ways to improve that relationship, would you say that’s accurate, that’s absolutely accurate Thomas, and I’m sure again, you know, the style of business that you’re doing the way you’ve branded it, they inherently know they’re valued on some level and of course month in and month out, you’re delivering the best possible service that you can, but what we do on an exceptional basis and I do believe people value experiences more than stuff, so, you know, if it is a consumer business then, you know, yes rewards are easier to facilitate, but sometimes even a phone call and I remember another guest of mine talking and it was a hotel brand Kimpton Hotels in the United States, and again, they had their operational principle, they knew their top guests and they were just literally every quarter, get the management team around the table with a phone on speaker and they would call these particular top guests and every member of the management team would literally explain to the guest how important and how much they valued that that person’s business.
So I think even verbal affirmation and we all know how busy we are, so to sit down and put time into having just a phone call is guaranteed to be something that has a wow factor. So I know for sure if a company called me with a few people around the table and said we love having you as a customer, what else can we do for you and we’re all here to listen to contribute. I would be blown away. I just don’t think there’s enough of that in the world. I agree. And it’s a it’s a simple thing that we should all be able to do, but probably quite rare. So it’s a very good point. Yeah. I have noticed that you worked with some pretty big brands and I’m always interested to know how those relationships come about and also what you do for them. So am I right in saying that you’re a consultant, would that be accurate? I was a consultant in the past, would you believe? I am now a professional podcaster. So that gives me great joy actually Thomas because I literally just resigned my final consulting contract.
And I have loved consulting predominantly because I like the operational side of loyalty programs or of any business I guess. And to answer your question I got my first gig and loyalty purely by recommendation and referral. So somebody was dealing with actually Telefonica 02 which is a huge brand I know in the UK market and they had a loyalty proposition that wasn’t working. So again the operations were suffering and their recruitment agency and marketing search team I guess knew that my background meant I had exactly the right skills to fix the program. So I got in by virtue of, again, personal knowledge, which is always a blessing. And again, we know the best form of loyalty is advocacy. So somebody speaking on our behalf and would you believe through seven years of Telefonica in Ireland the brand did change ownership and the loyalty program changed ownership through 10 different loyalty managers in seven years.
So actually, I just became for that length of time, actually quite invaluable, which was, I think, you know, again, good, good commitment and very, very clear intention from my part and then they did very much come through referrals. So I’m a, you know, very passionate believer in, you know, holding space and you know, showing up as publicly as possible. So I would have done quite a few, I suppose, speaking engagements. I find that that’s an incredible way to establish trust, and credential is yourself without having to sell. And inevitably after speaking engagement, people will approach, they will probably have a problem and they believe you have a solution and we all buy solutions at the end of the day. So yeah, I think public speaking is one of the best things I’ve ever done, What’s the reason why you didn’t want to do it anymore, because I love this platform and what I have learned Thomas’s, I have more questions than I have answers and people expect consultants to have answers and it always just made me super uncomfortable if it came, you know, maybe it’s just a, you know, an outreach through a channel where it wasn’t somebody recommending me who knew me, I was always convinced that find, you know, catch me out or something, there was something that I didn’t know, so I just never felt fully up to date and I still have that, I think it’s called imposter syndrome.
There you go. So what I have discovered is there’s plenty of, I suppose a different type of pressure as a podcast host, but inevitably once I get past overthinking it, it’s very enjoyable and I have built it as a business, like from the word go, I realised the loyalty industry needed much more connection between the service providers and the marketeers and I suppose conferences have a very good role to play, but as somebody who loves to travel, I just didn’t even have the time or space to attend all of the conferences I wanted to and I really think audio is a very, very powerful way actually to drive loyalty. This is something I have discovered since I started that by showing up and having your voice on the, you know, radio waves or podcast waves on a weekly or twice weekly basis.
People do listen and they decide if they like you are they not. And thankfully, I have found enough people who decide they like me. So yeah, I have managed to bring on sponsors and yeah, I love the business side of it. Well, well done for that. Congratulations because I think I think there are a fair number of people trying it and not many people perhaps achieving at it, but if You’re 100% in, you know all the way in and I’m sure you’ll do great. I think where it Where people struggle is where they don’t, they’re not quite 100 burn the boats I think is the phrase totally, you’re absolutely right Thomas. Yeah, I I have stopped and started, you know blogs and you know all of the usual and stuff in digital over the last couple of years. So I took a very long time before making the decision to start it and I was laser focused that I wanted it as a business.
So I made the commitment that okay if I did have a sponsor And then of course I’d have to show up and release content consistently. So even though I didn’t of course like any business you have to start to create the product and that has definitely served me well. So yeah, just crossed the threshold of, you know, this is now an income that I can survive on. So yeah, I’m 100% in. Well the good thing about that also is that I get to ask you pretty much anything and you know, you don’t have any reservations about sharing too much value, right? Which I think is case sometimes, but in terms of trends other than the subscription model, what the trends in loyalty, what are the trends? Well, I think partnerships is probably something that deserves discussion. And actually that’s the first program I started working with was based on a partnership model because essentially what we know from loyalty programs as I suppose a proposition is that customers, if they do start to like a currency and see value in it, they want to be able to earn that currency quickly and easily or as quickly and easily as possible.
So in the UK Nectar is obviously a very successful program, but I think more and more companies are realising that you don’t even have to get into something as legally binding and as complex as, you know, an independent operated coalition program, but if you are a company that can find a complementary brand, then you can really give you know, reciprocal benefits. So you know, for example, like you know, if I run a hair salon and there’s a Starbucks down the road, you know, do I want to be able to give the customer, you know, coupons in the coffee shop to come get their hair done and vice versa. So I think any form of partnership that’s obviously a small example, but the ubiquity of making the loyalty program valuable to the member is a really big trend. There’s one program in Japan for example, that totally blew my mind and it’s called Rakuten and they have a point space program. It’s a brand that is essentially the amazon of Japan. But if you collect rocketing points, you can use them in 600,000 stores.
So it’s utterly mind blowing. It’s a whole other scale. And I do think that trend of, you know, usability and the importance of the moment of truth and actually getting a reward is something that more loyalty marketeers are comfortable with because in the past Thomas what happened was, you know, programs would be built and let’s say an airline and they would assume that a certain amount of the points would never be used, the miles would never be claimed and that is always true and we call it breakage. But financial teams started to put pressure on marketing teams to disincentivise redemption so that the breakage would be higher. So they didn’t have to give the reward. So that is definitely a trend as well. Coming back again to, you know, ethical marketing and integrity, more and more brands are saying, no, let’s actually make sure that our customer gets the reward. Let’s close the loop. And then we know actually the trust is complete then because they’ve gone full circle and then they’ll go back in and I guarantee you they’ll spend more, It seems like a fairly simple one to fix because there are expirations to some of these things.
And I would think, you know, if it is about, as you say ethics, you could just say, you know, if you don’t use them in two years, your points will be donated to charity or something like that. Absolutely. And that is another trend actually Thomas, you know, and increasingly not just, you know, let’s write one check to one charity from a company, but let’s try and be more relevant. Let’s say to local charities, I think Tesco, for example, have done that very well over the years, but certainly globally that’s another trend we would definitely see more of. I have just realised actually, given our conversation that maybe we do have a loyalty program because for every, um, for every new client, we sponsor a child. And in an underdeveloped country. And obviously, as long as they are a client of ours, they continue to sponsor that child. Would you call that a loyalty program or is that something else? I would call it? A loyalty initiative program tends to be associated with the full communications, the currency.
So it’s semantics, I think, in terms of the terminology and it is a loyalty initiative, you are driving customer loyalty. And I think in that situation, I suppose even the fact that it didn’t immediately come to mind for you may mean it doesn’t immediately come to mind for your clients. So I think the absolute key is the communications piece. And perhaps another trend. If I was to add to the last point to me, the biggest possible trend could be, you know, let’s increase and improve our communications with customers because I think, you know, emails work well for sure we know for our newsletters and whatever else we send out. But I think we’re all a little bit jaded of text based communications and clearly we know the power of voice, we know the power of video. So perhaps your loyalty initiative does need more communications to make sure that all of your customers are really clear and feel really good about something that they’re actually doing. But my close, it’ll from time to time, great point making a lot of good points here, Paula glad to be helping.
So in terms of the last couple of questions I wanted to ask you this because I feel like you touched upon something regarding companies who make a loyalty program and maybe they haven’t quite done the research on whether or not the client would actually use it or see it as being valuable. So if you were starting out with loyalty endeavour, then how would you go about ensuring that it’s actually something that’s desirable to your customer? I think first of all, you need to be very honest with yourself about what business you are in. And I say that by, you know, I suppose looking at so many industries, like if you look at the insurance industry for example, there’s probably not much point building appoints program because you can’t really convince somebody to spend more on, you know insurance. In fact they want to do the opposite convenience retail. I do a huge amount of work with and again it has almost been an inconvenience in many instances to join a loyalty program when all I want to do is either pay for my fuel or you know, pick up the newspaper for example.
So I think it’s super important to be understanding your objectives. why are you building a loyalty program and have a single mission, a single vision for what this loyalty initiative or program is intended to do. So there are lots of industry experts and again I’m a member of a lot of these kind of networks of loyalty consultants who can really advise you on the structure, the format, the mechanics and I suppose that the whole P. N. L. That would go around the loyalty program even before you start. So it should be around driving profitable behaviour change. But it’s clear that you have to understand who are those most profitable customers already and what room is there for them to spend more. So in my experience, loyalty programs work well when there’s a lot of sameness in the service or the product or at least perceived sameness. so airlines or telecommunications companies.
So you know if I have a phone package, you know this is where 02 taught me so much. For example how different is it? You know, let’s compare Vodafone and 02. So how do you differentiate one from the other? And in that instance for sure you can build a very powerful loyalty proposition. And again as long as your customers are aware of it, you’ll be surprised how many are not and understand it and of course engage with it. I think those are the things. But it comes back to the point actually we talked about briefly Thomas about talking to your customers. It’s not rocket science. I would certainly be considering various propositions rather than making any assumptions about what a customer or a member might enjoy. And yeah build something that they actually think, yeah that actually is something I understand. So simplicity is critical and then obviously building on top of that to say, okay great. Yeah I’ll definitely join if you build it so you do need to have the customer feedback before you do anything. Thank you for that. I don’t know if you’ve heard the phrase in terms of how to grow a business but it’s like there’s three ways to grow a business more customers.
Increase the transaction size or frequency. I think it is. And I mean loyalty I would say is perhaps frequency because obviously if they’re doing it more often over a longer period then that’s another way to grow your business. Why do you think it is the case that loyalty is overlooked? And, um, new customers is almost always the go to, it breaks my heart, I have to say Thomas and, and it is a huge problem. The reason I believe is simply because the statistical analysis and attribution of the investment in loyalty is very hard to prove. So we often hear, for example, people saying, oh yes, my members of my loyalty program spend five times as much as my non-members, but of course they spend more already.
So that doesn’t mean it’s because of your loyalty program. So to identify what is the lever that’s driving that spend behaviour, it’s really difficult to isolate it to measure it and to prove the return on the loyalty investment. So most of the loyalty directors and managers or finance teams that I would have worked with, we spend a lot of time, I suppose, just kind of trying to prove to each other whether we’re doing a good job or not, like defending our loyalty programs. So that’s very hard to do over a long term. And again, if you don’t have the right level of expertise, which I certainly didn’t, and I still wouldn’t have that type of expertise, I find, you know, it’s really something that people should invest in to get maybe an independent analysis done on their loyalty program, if they have one to find out if it’s working and if so which parts of it are working and which parts of it might be actually an expensive part that’s not changing behaviour in a way that’s profitable for the business.
So yes, acquiring customers is always kind of seen as the easy win and a loyalty program as well. Just takes a very long time. It is a relationship like any relationship that you have to invest in forever. So when companies have quarterly sales targets and all of these other things they want to do, It’s much more you know I suppose business friendly to say to your shareholders, we got all these new customers rather than necessarily, yeah we’ve engaged them in the loyalty program and we think they’ll spend more over time because this is what we’re driving. So yeah, difficult conversations for sure. Are there any businesses that you think why aren’t they focusing more on loyalty as not necessarily individual businesses but categories of businesses? I think it’s a very well established business if I’m honest, Thomas. But in fact my show today was about a loyalty program in the real estate business would you believe?
And it’s a ground-breaking program, it’s based out of New York at the moment. It’s called Bilt Rewards, B-I-L-T. And to me this is something that has global relevance and the insight is that particularly for younger demographics like gen Z or millennials, their biggest monthly expenditure is their rent and they’re not getting recognised for paying the rent on time, they’re not getting recognised or any rewards for remaining a resident in a particular property. And for landlords, there is a pain point actually, because, you know, if people do move out obviously, then they have to go and find new tenants or new residents and you know, there’s just a lot of inherent cost with replacing them. So if I was to say, where is the biggest, the next big thing. I think built rewards have identified something that nobody had really thought about. So yeah, I think that’s a very exciting opportunity might be a gap in the market there totally, totally, you heard it here first.
What are your goals for your podcast, Paula?
My goals for my podcast, ideally are to continue to make a big difference and grow the audience. So I am very proud of the audience that I have, but you know, there’s over a million loyalty marketeers in the world according to LinkedIn. So I definitely don’t have a million listeners. And I guess I would love to find a way to make it more efficient for me. So it is extremely time consuming and intensive as I needn’t tell you to show up and release two shows every week. So yeah, my goal would be that I would be able to expand it in ways that don’t require me to do everything. So maybe create a community of loyalty professionals or, you know, write a book about what I’ve learned from the show, there’s lots of other great goals that I have. But yeah, little, you know, up to my eyes, let’s say with them, with everything, I’m already doing any ted talks on the horizon. Ooh, someday that that round piece of red carpet Thomas, what can I tell you?
It’s got its own brand identity for sure, definitely. Is there anything that I haven’t asked you about today regarding loyalty that you think would be of value to the audience? Not really, I suppose my fundamental, I suppose guiding principle would be again, what a guest shared, A very well-known guest in our industry comes from Bain & Company, very, very big consulting firm. And Rob Marquis founded the, the loyalty division and within Bain & Company, and when he came on the show, he talked about the founders mentality and by that he obviously meant particularly anybody who has launched a company really values their customers way more than professional managers do. So obviously everybody can have that. But if anybody is listening and wondering, how do I build loyalty will think, like the owner, even if you’re not the owner, how can I take care of people better. So, yeah, if that was one simple way to think about loyalty, I think that’s a that’s a really good lesson, Thank you for making the distinction between the concept of loyalty and a loyalty program, because I immediately thought of it as though it’s a loyalty program, but it’s kind of the same outcome.
Or maybe even you may even get a better outcome from loyalty rather than a loyalty program. So one learning that I’ve taken away, and I’m sure when I watch it again, which I will, I’ll take another one or two away, so thank you. Sure. Great, well, I’m happy to have helped.
Where’s the best place for people to find you, Paula?
The best place Thomas is LinkedIn where Paula Thomas is, you know, pretty easy to find. Certainly if you put Paula Thomas and loyalty anywhere I should be easy to find. I’m happy to chat on LinkedIn or my own website is letstalkloyalty.com. So very easy as well for people to find me there and people can learn more from listening to the podcast. Yeah, always Thomas, thank you. Thank you very much for your time.