#212 – Kindly Cut The Crap With Wendy Nash

Thomas Green here with ethical marketing service on the episode today we have Wendy Nash, Wendy welcome. Thank you. Thank you thomas. It’s lovely to be here, lovely to be invited on your show. It’s I’m always really delighted with when people make an effort to make sure that all the tech is good. Everyone is well prepared. I really take a moment to appreciate kind of what the value that you provide for your community and how much care that I received in that process.

So I wanted to say thank you very much for that. I also wanted to say that in Australia this is aboriginal land and there is a tradition that has um started in the last few years to recognize that, that I am actually speaking from different countries, just as a I guess a response for respect and ethical behaviors and that’s that’s how it is. So just to say that I’m calling from different country, Well, thank you for that, I appreciate the kind words. Would you like to tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do? So what I do is I teach meditation coaching. I don’t tend to narrate meditation. I work from meditation practices that work for other people and generally I focus on loving kindness, meditation just because Well, wouldn’t it be nice if the world was a little bit kinder?

Um, and I just think that we’re not so good at receiving kindness and noticing the kindness that comes our way and so by opening up that into our daily life and presence, we’ve become really aware of how many acts of kindness are actually coming our way all the time. And because I work with startup founders and entrepreneurs, it’s a really hard slog, you would know this thomas that it’s quite demanding. There are a lot of financial setbacks. A lot of funding rejections you often as co founder conflict and trying to always look for ways to look for kindness and support that’s around all the time is just the only way to keep saying otherwise. I think you can really easily get caught in burnout. So, um, and and and think, oh look, it’s not really worth anything and why am I bothering? It’s just such a hard slog and it’s for the long term.

So, my my goal is to give people really holistic way of seeing kindness that is in their lives to be able to feel supported. And also to then when they get large, you know, they become larger and they become, you know, they have employees and and everything, then I really think that if we are aware of the kindness that we have and we are practiced at receiving, that we are therefore more able to give it more kindly in the workplace with people and more respectful workplaces that I’m hoping to build with my style. So that’s what I do. Well, thank you for the introduction. You mentioned something which I was going to ask you about, which is personality differences. You mentioned co founder personality differences, but I suppose there, um, you mentioned employees as well. So it’s it’s relevant among all of those groups, What springs to mind when I, when I bring up personality differences for you, there is a lot of conflict that happens.

You know, people, people start businesses for a few different reasons. Sometimes it’s because they have quite difficult personalities and they don’t want to fight with people, but they’re not necessarily very good at being employees. And sometimes, you know, people come together and they’ve got an idea about something but find that one is really good at the technical skills, but maybe not so good at meeting deadlines. And so that becomes this real tension about, well how we’re going to meet what the customer needs and meet the investor needs and and things like that. So it can be really, you know, a lot of anxiety and therefore a lot of narcissistic wounding will emerge. So I think some people have a more softly spoken, relaxed style and that works well, but there can also be, and some people have a more Naki character. Um, and some people uh, for people who are working hard, getting it done moving ahead, really pushing it.

It can build up a lot of resentment that another person is dedicated enough or working hard enough, so, and those sorts of things can emerge um, definitely, so some some interesting topics, they’re both narcissism and resentment. So how how do we deal with those, those different topics? Gosh, Narcissism is a large topic. I’ve been looking at that for about 20 years. So it’s a topic that has, I find it very interesting. People have an idea that Narcissism is by its nature negative. And Narcissism I think is really what happens as we develop as humans. So it’s part of the separation process at about six months old when we start to recognize that I and me and my care is somebody else and people around me are different. Um and then we also have a lot of expectation about doing things and we may not feel like we have the emotional resources or the physical resources to do that.

And so rather than allowing ourselves to feel the emotional engagement with that because it’s just too overwhelming. You know baby bodies are very, you know, easily overwhelmed. So what happens with that is that we then push down our feelings, excuse me, we push down our feelings and right over the top of that and then when we ride over the top we’ve become quite hard and you can see I’m lifting my body up. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that experience where you’ve had to struggle and push through. It’s that experience that is the narcissism that is forming and the way to work with that is to I well you can work with a psychotherapist or someone like that, but a great deal of that can can also be worked within meditation. I don’t think that psychotherapy and you can replace psychotherapy with meditation but I do think they work very well together with the wounding that happens, which is what we all have, we can’t function without having an ego because we need to be able to do things.

So even people like a toll have narcissistic wounding that will arise. Um but what we can do is ask some kind of what I say backwards questions to resolve that. So I’m a great believer in introspection. I’m a very extroverted character actually, and I’ve learned introspection through my own journey and what I do is I ask, I’ve got a problem, I’ve got this conflict with this colleague and I’m really knocked off and I don’t know what to do and I meditate. So that’s what I do. But if your audience perhaps goes for a run or cleans the house or whatever it is that people do something fairly monotonous, you bring that difficulty to mind and then you say, what am I not seeing about that? And it’s a funny sort of question, because it sort of isn’t logical, which is great because logic is what the ego wants, it wants to make it very linear and straightforward, but by asking what am I not saying about this?

So I is the ego, because that’s the separation as I talked about before, but it’s sort of saying, what am I not seeing about that that actually allows the rest of the mind to come forward with the solution that is just there. So it just needs to be heard. And that sort of wearing voice, which is, you know, this problem, I’m feeling a conflict. That’s the narcissism that is coming through in that. And you ask for something else, which which was if I think about personality as well, do tell me if I’m not answered the question or you’d like something else added. No, no, it’s great answer. And you’ve already got me thinking about the next thing that I wanted to ask you about, which, because you mentioned the ego and if I’m not mistaken, you’ve got some some thoughts on the ego and responses within the workplace. So would you like to share them? Um So within the workplace, I can say that everybody has an ego. Nobody doesn’t have an ego. So even though I’m buddhist and I follow buddhism.

So the buddhist says um that the ego is like a bubble on the Ganges. So he doesn’t he’s not saying he doesn’t have an ego, he’s saying it’s a thought that if you if you listen to a particular thought, you’ll become aware that it has a beginning a middle and an end and it runs into another thought. So you might have something that says um oh I went to the shops and then they didn’t have it on the on the shelf and then uh you know, with Covid that doesn’t have it and then the politicians aren’t paying people crack it and whatever it is that you have, each one of those is a separate story and they’re all joined together by an emotion that sits underneath. So by owning the emotion that sits underneath, we then can become aware of ways that are unhelpful when interacting with colleagues. So it’s I don’t know if I’ve answered your question, but definitely speaking kindly to people is really important.

So that’s the first one, listening is really important to have a really fantastic book that I use for um interaction styles. It’s a guy called it’s a it’s a couple actually, Emily and Laurence Alison, and they have the book report and that is absolutely fantastic for getting on with people. Um irrespective of where they come from. It doesn’t talk about personality differences. It doesn’t it’s much more focused on a particular interaction to be able to get on well with a colleague to understand what’s going on for you, what’s going on for them, what is the outcome of the conversation? And I think they worked it works very well in the workplace because and we want an outcome at work. And that book really nails perfectly. The need, I don’t have anything to do with that book. I just think it’s the best book ever on communication. I’ve been looking into that for about 15 years. So it’s a really fantastic book.

Some of the stuff that we’ve covered so far, I would say can start off quite subtle. So for example, someone’s ego is a little bit hurt. Or maybe you might not even know that someone’s upset about a particular thing. Have you got any thoughts on I don’t know, preventing those types of instances? You know I worked in the U. K. A couple of years ago and I did find that people were offended really easily for things that were completely baffling to me. So I do think that the english arts particularly in the Southeast um are more prone to feeling aggrieved and offended. So compared to other nationalities. So there is something cultural about a disposition that is specific to the UK. Um I think Australians are pretty forthright and I definitely further more forthright than most. I would definitely say that I don’t think you can prevent offense because we are we all we all get hurt.

I think that what we can do is I think in an interaction in every interaction to really listen to, what does this person care about? What is their concern that they want addressed here and what is the emotional flavor of it? What is the feeling tone that is kind of driving it? So I don’t think it’s wise to go into the feeling tone of um what is going on or they’re really angry or whatever. You might be able to do that. But instead it’s better to address the concern they might feel um that their voice isn’t heard they want to express themselves. So it’s a slightly different take and this is straight from the book on the poor, that is definitely the way to address that. I did have a colleague I worked with and she was offended by me. And I just I just didn’t understand like apparently you’re supposed to chase them and find out what have I done or something like that.

And I just don’t understand why somebody can’t just speak up and go, you know, you’ve offended me and I was hurt by what you said. But anyway, I I was quite baffled by um english ways of I mean my parents were english, but I found that quite baffling and confusing, so I’m not sure I’m the best person to answer that question in that way. One of the things I was going to ask you about was actually the negatives of avoiding conflict and this is kind of what we’re talking about now. So what are some of the the disadvantages to not doing that? Well how long how long do you want? I mean basically if you don’t address it either emotionally in your own work and just because you can’t always address that, you know hurt, it’s not appropriate in the workplace to be telling the boss, you know, you hurt me. That’s just not all the ceo you can’t do that. Um or a client, you can’t do that, so you have to work at it in your own level. Um and but if it’s, if you’re in an office and you come across that person all the time, I think it is possible to come forward and say that because if you don’t, you will become resentful and perhaps spiteful and passive aggressive.

And I think that if you avoid conflict, I actually have a client and he’s very avoidant of conflict. And basically it means that he has a colleague who is quite monarchy quite difficult. Very, I would actually say he has a narcissistic personality, so very complicated character and it has this really bad effect further down the line with his other colleagues. So people, one of his senior managers just gets really demotivated really quickly And his work gets sloppy and he gets really frustrated and I’m just like, you know, you’re going to have to deal with this or that guy is going to go and you’re gonna have to like bite the bullet on, on doing that and get 360s. If it depends on where you sit in an organization as well and your sense of power within that organization.

But if you’re the ceo you’ve got to deal with that because um yeah, otherwise you’re just basically letting, I don’t know, probably not elsewhere, but you’re like, you’re just letting stuff ricochet everywhere because you’re kind of cowardly at some level, that that’s my take on it, I mean, I’m quite stark about it. Um, but if you have a problem raised it, I did have a colleague who was very passive aggressive with me, she was and it was, I did find that very hard to deal with. Um and I because she was never overt with me and that’s what was really difficult, so I could never speak to her and yet she was actually bitching about me around the office to senior managers and all sorts and she did not recognize that that is bullying in the workplace. So if that’s what you’re doing, then you are bullying, I just want to put it out there.

I think in England, sometimes there can be this thing where if you don’t say anything, then you can’t cause offense, but actually excluding information from people withdrawing from contact is actually a form of bullying. So I I think you have to that that is a problem if you are not engaging. So I hope I have answered the question, you have to bite the bullet. You know, I know it’s a conflict of us community, but gee there were some terrible people in that office who were extremely aggressive and got away with it and that was horrible for the rest of us. It just created this awful toxic culture. So what would be, Yeah, that’s a great answer. I think that for those people who don’t know how to, should we say use the term bite the bullet, but presumably there’s a way to do it in a in a positive way, although that is something that I wanted to talk to you about because ah the perils of positive thinking was a very interesting um interesting thing that I wanted to talk to you about.

So hopefully we can come back to that, but for in the instance where um you let’s say you have someone who you feel has done something or said something not very nice. Um and let’s say a british person in this particular example that we’re talking about. So I’m not going to talk about that, it’s too difficult to talk about in the instance where it would be better if they did talk about it. What is a what’s a good way to um to do that in a non confront confrontational way, be really specific. So speaking very specific terms about what exactly the person did um provide any, so provide there might be sort of conflicting evidence. So they might say, well on the one hand, you know, you see yourself as um sort of softly spoken and whatever and generally that is true, but in this instance you spoke and you said x, y Z.

My sense is looking at the other people or me at the table, whoever it was. Um my experience was that it was, it was not a pleasant experience and I felt um harmed by that and I want to have a good working relationship, but I am unsure about how that can be given this unkind comment that came my way, but very stick to specific fact specific words specific, keep it really, really tight, I would say and provide a sort of a is it a solution or an outcome that you want from it sort of describing as well from from my perspective, I feel statements so sort of not blaming the other person, but kind of saying this is how I feel around that. Is that a fair? Yeah, I think that’s true and I think it’s also worth saying, you know, listening out for people’s, what do they actually care about?

You know, my sense is you really care about getting on with people in this instance. It didn’t work out well, there’s also the case that what the researchers found is that the way that you start a conversation is the way that it finishes. So if you go, why did you say that to me, it will end really badly. But if you if you get somebody on their own in a quiet moment a little bit informal, don’t sit opposite them, but set to the side of them. Um and just say, look, hey, I just, I found this a bit weird and um this is what I found really difficult and I want to get on work well with you and I want to do that. So I did have a situation in an organization where somebody was quite abrupt with me and I did take exception. And I just said, you know, I was quite abrupt with him because he was very abrupt with me and I thought he had just started in the organization and I thought about it and I I knew he had a meeting um, in another office elsewhere.

And so I just got my coat and I sat outside and I knew when he would be appearing and I said, let’s walk together. I think we can do better than this. Let’s let’s we start, we started on the wrong foot, let’s walk. So there is and and we actually, he we actually became very good colleagues from that as it happens. There is a really important thing and um, there’s some research that I just saw the other day which is to if you have conflict to walk to move. So if you have to have an awkward conversation, it’s just really good to go for a walk around the park or down the street or wherever. That is a really nice way of giving people space to be able to move away because if it feels static, it can be the conversation a bit static. But however you start is however you finish and keep moving if you can yeah, you brought up someone who was conflict averse and your example of having a better relationship as as a result of sort of working through it with someone that is actually sort of one of the negatives around not saying something is that you can’t repair that the damage and therefore you can’t have a better relationship with that person because, you know, you can’t have any disagreements with someone, and that’s the negative side of being conflict of us and what are the perils of positive thinking, Wendy?

You know, basically it’s the same thing, It’s just avoidance, isn’t it? Just not, it’s just a conflict, it’s conflict diverse, you know, it’ll get it’ll get better or they’re just having a bad day. Um, yeah, I I have a strong antipathy towards positive thinking. Um I was raised in it and I just found it completely oppressive and appalling. I think it’s really important to speak your mind, you know, at some level, if you if you don’t feel that the other person can bear the truth in my mind, actually, you don’t respect them. So to me, toxic positivity is actually a form of disrespect for the other person. It shows that you don’t think that that person can tolerate the truth, and I don’t mean to be blunt or harsh with truth. I mean, there is a really good ways of just speaking the truth, but not getting caught up. Um but not avoiding the issue at hand.

It’s interesting because I don’t know, I’m undecided on this issue. So maybe you can help help with clarity for me, so there’s that example of problems versus challenges. So on the one hand, you’ve got your I mean I’m an advocate of the truth and I’m 100% on the same page as you. There are some people who say, you know if you look at problems as though their challenges or call them challenges, there’s actually a, shall we say more positive outcome that you might expect as a result of calling it something different and yeah, I guess I’m undecided on that. So if you got any thoughts there words are important, intention is important. Yeah, I am sort of sitting there. I think it is, you know, it depends on how you, how you frame it. I think you know we’ve got a problem. I think that’s unhelpful but if you say look there is a problem here, um then there is a problem I think that’s honest.

But if you say you’re, you’re, you’ve got a problem that’s blaming the other person. So I wonder if some of it is actually about how personalizing it is. I actually have a really good way for problem solving. So I actually use the word problem, I don’t like the word challenge. It feels a bit fake just for me because I like to be straightforward. I have a framework which I think is a really useful one and I use it with, I’ve used it in personal interactions and I’ve used it. I ask clients to do that with problem solving and they find it really helpful. There is a meditation practice called the metabolic and the cultivation of loving kindness and it’s done in five stages usually. And you start with yourself, may I be well and be happy be at peace and then you get somebody you are very fond of and you wish them, you know, may you, I wish you well to be happy and be at peace. You get a stranger, I wish you well be happy and be at peace at peace. You get somebody who have a difficult person and if somebody is listening to this and they want to try this, do it with somebody who has nicked your coffee cup, do not do this with somebody.

You have a longstanding difficult relationship with or a high level of trauma, don’t do that. Um and then you do it for the whole world. But I kind of realized that this is a really good frame for all problem solving. So what’s good, say if I take um my passive aggressive colleague, what’s good is that um I guess there’s plenty of opportunity to bring it to the table so I can actually raise that and I feel strong enough in myself and I feel like I have a strong enough connection with this person to be able to raise it as long as I do it in the right way. What’s bad is that? Um it’s not being addressed. It is a problem if she’s bitching and gossiping around and bullying in all sorts of different ways. What is unknown is I actually don’t know how she’s going to respond to this. I don’t know what it’s going to be like if I raised the question and that’s quite scary. And then what’s the whole picture?

Well, do I want to you know what is the overall picture? If I’m leaving that organization next week? Don’t care if, if I think, okay, I’m gonna be here for a year to then the overall picture is that this is going to be worth working through. Not from anything else. I don’t want to have people be, I don’t think ill of me. But I also think there is something about speaking up in order to for the other person to understand the implications of their behavior. So the basic thing is what’s good about it, what’s bad about it? What’s unknown and what’s the overall picture and from there, you can make a bit of a decision about what you want to do, but I use the word problem not challenge. I think that’s a bit I don’t be in my, in my estimation. It’s an opportunity. Yeah. Well maybe there’s a bit of, and no subjectivity in everyone’s instance.

So you said that you’re quite a straightforward person and therefore your preference would be just truth straight down the line, right? Yeah. I think that’s what’s respectful and I think that actually we can hear truth, you know, like when kids speak the truth, you can really hear it, you can really hear it. If there’s any sense that the other person is being criticized, then I think you really need to think about what’s your motivation here? What outcomes are you seeking here? Because if there is a sense of being criticized, well, am I wanting to put them down, put them in their place and that’s a really bad thing. That needs a bit more work internally. Okay. Um, well the, the profile that I’m sort of in prep for the conversation, you’re, if I’m not mistaken an advocate of meditation and mindfulness and one of the questions I was going to ask you because I have practiced mindfulness at least, although I’m not entirely sure if you make a distinction there between those two, but I haven’t continued and so what, what are your thoughts around?

I suppose people who have started but are no longer practicing. So the first time I meditated, So a couple of stories. One time I meditated and I think it was five years later, I meditated. I just wasn’t ready. You know, it’s something that people, it takes a while sometimes for people to get that to be ready because it’s quite confronting. It’s the first time you ever kind of have that noise wearing in your mind. Um, the other thing is the first time I did loving kindness meditation, I sat down and we had to do, you know, may I be well and maybe. And we got to the end and then the instructor said, how did you go? And I went, wow, I didn’t realize I hated everyone. So he’s quite confronting in some ways. So it’s not surprising that people don’t continue after they’ve done it once, but I think that it is worthwhile persevering. And there are also a lot of different techniques. So um mindfulness is the one I think counting breath or a body scan.

They tend to be quite common. Um, there’s also other ones to do with you, You have, you know, I’ve got a cup in front of me and just to feel that cup, there’s a touch meditation, just become aware of um, what the sensation is the things. So that’s another way. You can, you can bring your mind back to this. You can also do walking meditation. So if you’re going to the bus stop or something like that or even if you’ve got like kids, you know, in the house and it’s complete mayhem every time you take a step in the hallway, you just become aware of where you’re stepping. So that’s a different one. But I, you know, I, and I don’t think meditation is for everyone, there are some people who should never meditate. And I was once on a meditation retreat, which was a 26 day silent meditation retreat. This is and this is definitely not recommended for beginners. By the way, I was quite a beginner and I kind of went in too deep and as it happened, I was on in a space with a woman who went psychotic so there can be bad outcomes from meditation and it’s too concentrated too much, too soon.

It’s really important to self regulate. So if you feel like this is not the right time, it’s too much, your don’t push, it definitely do slightly less than more. Um, I also encourage people to go very slowly. So for instance, with some clients, what I do is I suggest to when they sit in bed at night just to turn their phone onto airplane mode and um, just set a timer for 60 seconds and that sounds like that’s nothing, you know, but if you just become aware of maybe the breath moving in and out, 60 seconds is quite a long time and then you might do that for a week and then the following week it will be two minutes, don’t go more than that after five weeks, That’s five minutes, but always do slightly less. So I have one client and she did two minutes and she’s done two minutes for three weeks because it’s just better that way because she has a really crazy wild mind.

So that’s, that’s important and I have no judgment for people who don’t meditate. I think if a person meditates generally I find that their minds are wilder and they make more bad decisions because they don’t have the time and space to create that. But some people prefer to go for runs and I’m like, okay, well if that’s what works for you, then that’s great. I also, you know, I’m buddhist because that’s what works for me, but I have a client who’s muslim, so I don’t, you know, whatever we worked through, I always say, okay, well apply this according to the Koran, whatever it is that we’re talking about, what are the verses in the Koran and apply that. And I would be just exactly the same if I had a christian client or an atheist, thank you for that. And um, I mean, I I I sort of pulled the analogy from, from exercise as well, in the sense that, You know, if you start off with 60 seconds, if you really want to do it, do meditation, you find it beneficial and you start off with 60 seconds, everyone has 60 seconds in their life to do something or you, you know, you essentially don’t have a life.

So I think that working it back in in small increments is going to be beneficial, but is there anything that I should have asked you about today? Um, I would let me think about it. What should I have asked, you know, the simplest way to lift your lift your mood actually is to drink two liters of water a day, Like the research is unanimous on that. So people go, oh, how can I drink two liters of water a day, It’s quite hard work, but actually I’ve got a couple of months here And I mean big branding here, but I’ve just said to ordinary 250 mill marks, if you put four of them in front of your keyboard in front of the keyboard and in front of the screen and that space between the two and you put four of them, that’s one liter and you do that. When you sit down at your desk in the morning, you repeat that after lunch, you drink all that and then that’s your two leaders and that is the single best thing to lift your spirits.

So all for being practical and making it really small, just do the small stuff and regularly and then build from there and what are your goals? Wendy my goals. So as a, as a child I have, I was really lonely and I was very bullied at school and I was tremendously isolated. There was a lot of, you know, both my sister and my father were dying, what my sister had died and my father was dying and it was just awful and I was desperately lonely and felt completely, deeply unloved and I was walking along the street and there was a church on the left hand side and it said, you know, it’s 19 seventies, so it said jesus loves everybody, jesus loves everyone and I was like, jesus is one person, I am one person I can find it if jesus can find a way to love everyone, I can find a way to love everyone.

So I guess that’s what I do in my work and I have still not found a way to love everyone I’m trying but still plenty of material to work with for sure. So that’s one of my big goals is to find a way to love everyone and to understand what love means in that context. I’m also quite keen to improve my memorization skills. There’s a really lovely book by Lynn kelly called Memory craft which gives it 100 different techniques of how to memorize which use indigenous practices. So that’s that. So that’s one of my goals. The other one is that I’m moving up to Queensland in a month, so it’s 1000 km away and packing up the house, getting rid of things on gumtree or craigslist or whatever it is that you know, getting things fixed, sorting out, getting the place cleaned, finding a rental place. So my current goals in the next month are just that. And the other thing is I actually want to be able to really deepen my meditation practice.

So um I have quite a busy life like everybody. Um I have only been with my partner for two years and before we met I used to meditate all the time and it was lovely and I miss that So much so one of my goals later on After moving is to really get into a much deeper meditation practice. Yeah, you might need it after the move. Right? So it would be helpful for that well and with the pandemic, you know so much stuff has shut down or not being able to and I’m sick of doing everything online. So I think everybody is like that. And what about you? What is it that you would like? Um do you have any questions or anything that you would like to say? I don’t think anyone has actually asked me that before, so thank you for for asking me. Um typically um when I have something I’m interested in, I will I will ask you. So the episode is is a reflection of the questions I have asked you is is stuff that I’m interested in.

So I guess that um yeah, we’ve covered it and I suppose I would say thank you for everything that you’ve that you’ve covered today. I found it helpful and I think most likely I will start getting back into meditation mindfulness as a result of our conversation today. So you never know how how positive that will be on, on my life and go ahead. I just wanted to recommend a couple of apps. I have nothing to do with the apps but people do ask me. Um so if you’re very oriented to enlightenment um and sort of learning about buddhism and things like that, There’s a US one by Sam Harris called Waking Up. That’s very good. He has a very good ethic with that and there’s one in the UK which is headspace, which is highly recommended. All the research says that that’s the one that they use, which has beneficial, you know, all the research is used for that. So I know that Oxford University for instance, that’s the one that they have for their staff.

Um, I have a friend who works at the University of Oxford, so she says that one, so definitely try the apps and there’s also insight timer that’s a little bit more random, but definitely try things and if you, if it works, that’s great. If it doesn’t, no worries, it may not work in this moment, come back to another time and you might find it’s completely, you know, in a different experience. I am actually a subscriber of waking up. So I’m glad that you recommended one that I actually use and they have found it to be quite, um, once you have learned the skill I found it quite, um, should we say beneficial for like, if you’re in, you’re not feeling very well, you’re in pain or whatever, let’s say you’ve got the flu. I think it’s very, very good to have that tool in your arsenal and, and he interviews very interesting people, he has top notch people on his program, He only has really high caliber people.

So at the bottom of that app is conversations and things like that. I think that’s definitely worth listening to you do have to pay for it. But if you can’t afford it, then he says to contact and he’ll arrange some kind of stuff in for you. So he has very good ethical and like his stuff, but it’s not everybody’s taste. So it is very good. Well, if people want to connect with you and perhaps, I don’t know, they, they want to find out more where do they go? So, um, I am a straightforward person and but I try also to be kind, but sometimes successful, sometimes not successful. So the company is called kindly cut the crap dot com and you can just, you can just find it through the contact page. That’s probably the easiest. I’m also on linkedin. There’s a Wendy nash there, there’s actually a couple of Wendy nashes in Sydney. Don’t go to the wrong one to go to me. So um, yeah, so that’s, that’s where I go.

But definitely kind of cut the crap dot com is the best way to contact box. Well, thank you for your contribution and for being a great guest today and I just wanted to say thank you very much also for your work with ethical marketing. It’s just so important to do that. It’s a really important part of the changes that are coming in society. So it’s really fantastic. I’m really delighted that you’re part of that. Thank you for your work in that it means a lot, actually, too, to people like me. All right, well um it’s been great having you on and thank you very much. It’s my pleasure. Thank you.