Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the episode today, we have Michael Harris. Michael, welcome. Thank you, it’s really great to be here today and to be able to talk with you and perhaps give some ideas to the listeners and audience on ways they can grow and enhance their business even more. Well, I’m very happy to have you. If you would like to tell the audience a little bit about yourself, that would be great. I’ll start with where I am today and then I’ll give a little bit of history how I got here. Today, I’m co-founder of what’s called “Endless Stages”.
Endless Stages is really an organization where we help authors, coaches, experts, entrepreneurs to get their message out. We have a very strong desire to help as many people as possible, help them connect with their clients, connect with their message, tell their story in a way that really invigorates whoever it is that they’re trying to get their message out. There’s so many different ways to do that and I could go on and on and on just about talking about story because I love story. That being said, I want to drop back to — as a kid, my dad was an entrepreneur. My dad owned about 100 gas stations, he had several heating oil companies, he had thrifty rent-a-car in Portland and in Honolulu, so we would travel a lot to Hawaii and one of the things that dad always talked about as an entrepreneur is “sell something that people want and need” and he says if you do that, you’ve always got a customer for life, and of course people wanted and needed gas, people wanted and needed heating oil. Heating oil is not quite as big as it used to be, because of gas and electric and everything else.
I started my first entrepreneur journey, was really as a six year old. I would come home, we had some property that had a bunch of blackberries on it and I would come home as a kid being in the backfield covered with blackberries and my mom would say oh you’re eating more blackberries. Yes of course, mom. And she would make the best blackberry pies in the neighborhood. All my friends would come over, we’d have blackberry pie parties, and mom would put ice cream on top and and all the kids wanted to take home pies from Mrs. Harris for my mom. Knowing what dad was telling me, I said to mom, “Mom, why don’t I go out pick a bunch of blackberries, you make the pies and I’ll go around the neighborhood and sell them.” We made a deal. Dollar a pie is what we sold them for. This was the mid sixties, late sixties, dollar a pie, and she would get 50 cents for the ingredients or for the crust and the pie tin and I would do the picking and I’d go door to door and I don’t know when the girls scouts started doing this. I thought about approaching them because they went with this idea of “How many boxes of cookies do you want to sell?” and I used that same idea.
I would go door to door and say, “How many pies would you want to sell”, versus “Do you want to buy a pie”, because I assumed they wanted to buy a pie. And so that increased my sales exponentially very quickly. I learned at that point what it meant to be an entrepreneur, what it meant to be able to go find the customers. I already knew that I had customers, because if I went to the parents of my friends, they wanted to buy the pies, they wanted to support me and they wanted to give their kids something that they would eat. So that was my first journey as an entrepreneur.
And you were successful in your pie venture? I was successful and I moved into other things as I got a little bit older, there was a local garden center and they sold lawnmowers and people could trade in their old lawnmowers and buy new lawn mowers, so I would go over there myself and two of my friends and my brother, we’d go over there. We would pay the Garden Center again $1 for one of their used lawn mowers that came in as a trade in. We would push it back to the house. It was three or four blocks away. We’d push it back to our house and we’d put a new spark plug in it, we would clean it up, we would brush it up, make it all look good, make it run good, and then we would put it in the local nickel lads for $20 or $25 with a 30 day guarantee. And we sold lawnmowers; as many lawnmowers as we could. We never got a single one back. There’s always this idea of, okay, “What can we sell?” “What do people need?” You’ve talked about a couple of things that I want to follow up on, but based on the berries, the pies, and the lawn mowing.
If you had to start today, let’s say you had to start scratch. What would you do today if you had to start a new business now? Well, we didn’t totally start from scratch, but one of the things is like within the stages, which is about a year old now. We started with scratch with that company, co-founder with me. He grew up in the entertainment industry as an actor and still does some acting and I’ve had a lot of training over the years using story as a way to get messages out, I’ve trained a lot of people with that. We really took what we already had and I believe that we all have something inside of us that we might not know. Even like storytelling, I realized a long time ago that starting out as a kid, again, I’m going to go back to a kid, 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade. I learned how to story tell and I didn’t even know it, and the way that I learned how to do that is show and tell.
The teacher would ask, “Where did you go on spring break?” Everybody had a minute to get up in front of class, tell everybody what they did, again at the time, I didn’t realize that I was learning how to speak publicly, but that’s exactly what I was doing. Today I take that skill that I already knew to continue to be a story. I take that skill with somebody else that they likely learned how to do that as a child to and to help build and enhance that and grow that, but really helping people recognize that in most cases they already have what they need to be successful. It’s just learning how to use and how to apply it. If there is somebody else out there that’s looking to start from something to scratch, I would say look back into your history. It may not be grade school history, it could be 10 years ago, it could be three years ago, it could be 20 years ago, and find out those things that you already know how to do and find something that somebody wants to buy from you or buy in general that they want and they need, and to use your skills to deliver that.
And that’s from your dad, want and need. Yes, want and need. I think it’s a pretty good principle for people to follow, because there are plenty of people who are perhaps trying to create businesses where they’re not following that principle, so thank you for sharing it. You’ve mentioned story, and I think by the way regarding your answer. I think it’s good that you’re saying that you would start a business that you’re actually doing because there are plenty of people who would say, well this industry is trendy at the moment, or I think you should go into this business, but it’s the business you would create is the business you’re in right now, so I think that’s worth highlighting regarding story. Why do you think that you’re interested in it and it resonates with people so much? Well, I think I’ll answer the second part first. Why it resonates; we’ve been storytelling for thousands of years. We used to sit around campfires and tell stories, and that has grown and grown and grown and really everything is about stories. The newspaper has a hook story and an offer, so to speak.
The hook is the headline. The story is the body of whatever that story is about, and oftentimes in those stories, it talks about action, either the action somebody took or the action that you can take as a result of reading that particular story. I did a lot of storytelling work through Mayoral Horseshoe University. Unfortunately it closed, it was in Portland and been around for about 100 years. I learned how to get up on stage and tell stories. Not just stories about business, but stories about the Menehune’s in Hawaii, which are the little people in Hawaii, and all sorts of different ideas. People resonate with stories, people resonate, especially with the emotional connection that the speaker is talking about. I can get up and talk about a really dry conversation about something, or I can talk about the motions, the ideas that people can connect with.
The idea of telling the story about show and tell in second or third grade. Virtually everybody can connect with that, because they’ve done that too, and they may have some emotions around that experience. It might be the fear of getting up in front of the class and talking. It might have been the fun to get up in front of the class. I generally had this feeling that I wanted to tell more than what I had time to tell. I also had to learn how to tell a 1 minute story, a 20 minute story, a 45 minute story, or maybe even a longer keynote type speech. Learning those different things, again, I’m really drawn to that idea of telling the story and I also believe that my story, whatever it is, is going to help a certain segment. Some people are going to be attracted to it, some people aren’t. Where your story, you may go out and talk about it and people are going to be attracted to what you had to say and then some people aren’t going to be attracted and then Tom Antion, which is a previous guest, or Robert, or some of your other previous guests. Certain people are going to connect with that.
I believe we all have a piece that we can tell that people are going to connect with. Thank you for the answer, and regarding why do you think you’re drawn to it? The topic of story. Well, one of the things that happened to me as a child. I was 12 years old and I was a hotshot water skier and I was out water skiing one day and I was doing a beach landing and I hit the beach and went head over heels. Initially the doctors, the first day, said nothing was wrong with me. The next day I ended up in the hospital. 10 days later I woke up from a coma, and was told that I had had 60% of my liver removed, my gall bladder, cracked ribs, collapsed lung. I knew that I had died and came back; had a near death experience as a 12 year old and I didn’t particularly want to come back to my body and I was told that I needed to go back, because I wasn’t done yet.
One of the things that I recognized, I heard you ask about why are you drawn to stories? I’ve had a lot of people say, “you have a really miraculous story that can help people” and I heard that for years and years and finally I wrote a story of everything that happened that was that — I started drinking too much as a teenager and in my twenties. I ended up having vascular disease. They were going to cut off my legs, so I’m really lucky to be here, right? The early part of my life had a lot of health issues that I had to deal with, that I had to overcome that adversity to be able to then live my life, and that adversity has a lot of value to it to different people, especially individuals that may feel down and out, maybe personally, maybe they feel like they don’t have enough self esteem to operate a particular business.
It’s that idea of story, recognizing that my story, people are going to connect with, or some people are going to connect with my story and go on to live their life as an entrepreneur, as a healthy person. I mean I used to walk on a cane, now I climb mountains as much as I can. I get outside and I climb a mountain and I was going to make a list, I was thinking about this yesterday, making a list of all the mountains I’ve already climbed just this year. Metaphorically is, how many mountains have I climbed? I couldn’t do that before. Again, I couldn’t walk 10 feet. That willingness now for me to get my story out when my self esteem was low. I didn’t want to look at myself in the mirror. I didn’t want to have my shirt off, because my scars or whatever it was. Recognizing, again I’ve said this probably three or four times already in in the last few minutes, but recognizing that my story may be of value to other people. And do you climb mountains for the mindset also, not just the, should you say the challenge of it? Initially I think it was more for the challenge of it where today it’s more for the mindset.
It’s like getting up on top of the mountain and sometimes I go with friends and sometimes I go by myself and on Saturday, a couple of days ago, I went by myself and climbed this — there’s lots of buttes that are where I live. I live in Oregon and there’s lots of old volcanic buttes around and I mean hundreds of them. There’s more than probably what I can ever get to, but there was one that I found on the map and it was called “The Pyramid” and I thought, “Well, isn’t that an interesting name? I wonder what that’s about.” So I went, and it’s 30 miles down a gravel road or so and dirt road and parked and then I climbed up to the top. I still don’t know why it was called “The Pyramid”, but that’s what it was called, and then I just sat up there. I had my lunch. I like to meditate, so I sat for a while in meditation at the top of this mountain, just enjoying everything that I could see and I could see for miles and miles.
One side was forced in the cascade mountains. The other side was the desert for hundreds of miles. Just getting up there and just releasing and we spent a lot of time in front of screens. There was no screen to be in front of, no computer, no laptop, no iPad. All those things. We’re letting go and feeling, really, I guess “grounded” is a good term for it. Both sides, Thomas. It’s for the physical and for the mindset. It’s interesting that you mentioned the screens, because I have had a few guests on where the encouragement is to get away from the screen, and the irony is that the message is coming from the screen. Do you manage yourself in relation to how much time you, as you said, are in front of some form of a screen? I don’t have like a set amount of time that I’m gonna be in front of a screen. Like an iPhone, you can set screen time like how much time you want. I don’t do that and at the same time I take a lot of breaks. I work for myself.
I live near a river and a river trail. I get out and I walk along the river every day. I get out early in the morning. It’s eight o’clock now and I left my house this morning at about 5:30 for about an hour. I make sure that I take a lot of time for myself. I practice yoga, I’ve been practicing yoga for years. I love going there and I call it more of a brain drain than anything else, just like releasing everything. There’s different things that I do and I have already mentioned getting out outdoors. I love getting outdoors, the thing too about the screen, we’re looking at something often within like a three foot radius or 20 inch radius or something, and just by getting outside looking at long distances, looking at the horizons actually builds and strengthens our eyesight. They didn’t have as many eye problems 150 years ago.
There was some, there was cataracts and there were some things like that, but the use of glasses and I have reading glasses now and I have blue blocker glasses. The use of glasses that’s really come about more the last 50-75 years and a lot of it is because we’re looking at something really close versus being out on our horses going across and I live in the States. Being out on our horses and our wagons looking at the long distance. Our eyesight has actually changed; its devolved in a way. You mentioned yoga in your response and this is one of your businesses or at least perhaps, was, would you like to go into that a bit? Well yeah, it’s part of, I mentioned some of the health issues that I had and I had started doing yoga in the midst of that and found that it really helped me a lot.
When I could barely walk, I found that walking, food and yoga were three of the things that really helped me a lot. Again, I can really go down that rabbit hole about healing ourselves with ourselves rather than a lot of medical intervention, although I had medical intervention, I didn’t have pharmaceuticals, but as I started doing more yoga I felt better and better and better, and I got attracted to hot yoga to Bikram yoga which is a particular form of yoga, and I had made a lot of money in the mid 90s. I was doing some option trading and made a nice sum of cash and was able to take a couple of years off. All I did was practice yoga, and I ended up at this teacher training. I’ve since done three different trainings, but I ended up in this training with with Bikram with the idea that it was going to help heal my body. I didn’t want to be a teacher, I just wanted to go practice with a bona fide yoga master type person, right?
I went to his training, not intending to teach or anything, just to heal my body. I ended up being the speaker at our training. Of course I’ve always liked to get up on stage and talk, and within about a week I was teaching at a studio in Portland where I was living and within a year I had my first yoga studio, and then I had another yoga studio and along the way a lot of people asked me to help them with their business, so I would give them a pretty dry — what I consider to be a pretty dry business plan, but they would then go to the bank with that exact business plan and get money to open up their studio, and so people started talking to me about their business and I started something also called yoga business expert, which I helped yoga studios around the world grow their business through building their enrollment, building their conversion, upselling, how to deliver the product and retention of of their clients.
And I found that I would go in there and oftentimes within a couple of months they would double or triple their business, and the primary reason was they already had enough people coming to them. They just didn’t know how to convert them into paying students and paying clients. That’s kind of the short version of it. It’s interesting that you took that route, because if you’re in options trading, I would think that that’s very scalable, or I should say leverageable and if you’re doing well from that, you wouldn’t necessarily have to go into yoga unless you particularly enjoyed it. So, was it a passion thing for you to get into? Oh, it’s definitely a passion thing, like I said, I mean I loved it so much and when I was doing the option trading, I was also raising, financing and kind of investment banking, kind of a hodgepodge of different things, and so I was wearing lots of tailor made suits, right?
I would go to a tailor in Portland and have Abraham Lee; he would make me these suits and these shirts and everything else, and I found that I would rather be wearing my yoga clothes than wearing this suit, this banker type suit, and that’s where I took that time off. One of the things that’s interesting about option trading. My accountant said, “How did you make money at this?” and I said, Well I focused on about six stocks and I just played them up and down and I just followed them. I didn’t get greedy, and I put aside with the money that I was making rather than trying to make these obscene amounts of bets on something; then you get into gambling. So, I just played it and I made some money” and he said, “Most people lose money in option trading, it’s really great to see that you made money and you did it in a way that you weren’t being greedy and that you put aside that money for what you wanted to do.”
Tempted to look back into that again or not really? I think about it. I haven’t been doing any trading. I only did call options, I didn’t do put options. I only did call, and I would — if I were to do something again, I don’t know whether I would do it the same way. I mean it’s changed so much today, the way that trading is from the 90s. I used to get up and Watch CNBC at 5:00 AM. They would interview a president of a company At 5:00 AM and I would listen to that interview and oftentimes, they were companies that I was already trading in. I would listen to what they would say and I often knew from what they were going to say that I could place a order perhaps at 6 or 7 in the morning, my time, and by noon, maybe I would make 1000 bucks, maybe make 5000 bucks, maybe I’d make 10,000 bucks.
But oftentimes by 7 or 8 o’clock in the morning, I was done with my day and then I could go out and and do my yoga or whatever it is I wanted that does sound like some sort of pitch that you would get online, which is what I was going to talk to you about about what do you think about the all of the kind of get rich quick stuff from someone who’s actually done it. Yeah, I’ve never got Rich quick. I always had to do the work to make it happen now. I know people that pretty quickly, especially in in the online space and with websites etcetera that have gone from zero to a couple million bucks in a few months. It’s not the normal trajectory. Normally it takes a lot of work to make that happen. Normally it takes a little bit more time than a couple of months.
There was one woman I knew, I haven’t seen her for a while, but she was, she sold a $37 product and about two months made a million seven on it. And it was a book on what happens when women are pregnant and then after the pregnancy, they lose control of their bladder. So she sold this book On how to overcome that again. $37 book and she made the thing, I want to say it was a million seven, almost $2 million dollars in just a couple of months. But that’s unusual. That doesn’t normally happen well to come full circle if you will back to story because I’m not particularly great at it. If you haven’t noticed as someone who’s an expert, you’re probably well aware. But if for those people who aren’t focused on it or who aren’t making the most of it, what do you say in terms of a an encouragement to do it better or to get started in it?
Well, I’m going to push back a little bit on you thomas about the the what what I heard you say that you’re not very good about stories. I think you’re you’re great and when we connected on something called pod match and I saw your story that you had put on this platform and went, wow, that’s a great story. And he’s helping other people tell their story, I like that. And so I was attracted to that and I sent a note to you and it basically said, hey, I think you’ve got a great show, I’d like to be on your show, What do you think? And you said? Yeah, so I was attracted to your story that you told and now I’m hearing you’re not very good at it, I would say you’re very good at it thomas, I mean, and you attract some really wonderful people that are really able to help the listener, some of what we, some of who we already talked about, some of the other people that I don’t necessarily know.
So you’re, what, what I heard, what I hear is you’re taking what you know, to spread a message because you want your listeners to hear a certain message, you want to give them some value in a certain area, It might be about avatars, it might be about legion, it might be about story, you know, there’s all sorts of different avenues and what when people want to discover their stories, if I can take a moment, there’s a very simple way to begin to create stories, we can go down this rabbit hole a long ways, but I’m just going to stay more towards the front of the whole so to speak. So a great way to really learn how to tell story, is to take your life and let’s say you’re 40 years old, you divide your life into five different Sections. So each section then is eight years old again and being real simple simple on this, each section is Eight years old or 88 years long.
So then you go back through those each section and go what stands out to me about my life, from 1-8, what stands out To my life from 9 to 17 etc. You find these stories in each part of your life and then you take each one of those stories and go, okay if I were to tell this story, what would I say? If I were to tell the story about Blackberry’s, what would I say if I would tell my story about being successful in business? What would I say if I were to tell my story about health conditions, What would I say? So you go back and again, there’s deeper levels of this, but it’s a great way to begin to look at your life in a story fashion on what your life was about and you often recognize things that you never saw before. I mean I can tell the story of being 14 years old catching a line drive in Little League baseball and winning the game and taking the base, you know?
So there’s all sorts of different stories and I can weave that into how that affects me as an entrepreneur or how somebody can use those type of stories to affect their own journey as an entrepreneur. So it’s not just like the crash and burn stories like my water skiing accident, it might be, how did you make X amount of dollars in a certain amount of time? So, you know, I’ve got another story which I can tell about making $40 million bucks for myself and my clients within the yoga business. And so that’s another story. So taking a look at those stories, breaking your life up into different sections, If you’re 41, you still break it up into eight different sections, divided by five. Um, but again, there’s about six or seven levels to this, but that’s a great way to start. Thank you for that, That’s great advice. And as you were saying it, I was I was thinking about the things that popped out at me as you were breaking down the categories.
So, you know, I’m already into my story journey, so I appreciate it regarding the me not being greater stories. I think intentionality might be something to do with that. And then perception in your answers. Sometimes I can feel myself sort of slipping into the, I’m listening to a story type thing and I’m just, you know, it’s like being in front of a television screen or something. You sit into a passive mode enjoying the story and identifying with it. And yeah, you’re very good at it. So I guess that’s that might be a point of clarification, but why you were you looking to achieve at the moment where your goals? Well, I want to get back a little bit too, why storytelling is so important right now. And this is part of part of part of my my personal side of it. There are so many people in the world right now that aren’t able to tell their stories. They’re not even able to use certain words without going to jail for a long period of time.
And in in the Western world primarily we’re free to speak our story in whatever way that we want. For the most part, there’s there’s some pushback, but it’s more peer pressure than legal type reasons or criminal type reasons. And I think all of us have something to say and the more that we say what whatever it’s about, all the different subjects that that we could list, whatever it’s about is important to push back against those areas where people aren’t allowed to speak. So I have this real thing about freedom of speech and being able to say whatever it is that that we want to say. And I believe that story helps us and it helps other people. So whatever challenges and difficulties that I had may inspire somebody else to do something different in their life too, whether it’s telling their story, whether it’s building their business, which is storytelling too with?
So I have that real personal passion about that and I believe that and I mentioned this earlier too that most of us already know how to tell stories, but it’s this building on what we already know to get our word out, it might be talking to a friend at a coffee shop, it might be doing a presentation for a local business, that might be doing a keynote, that might be doing podcasting. We help people a lot with how to podcast in the platform that we met on pO’d batch actually right now for On the leader board for the top 10 people on that leaderboard, our from our group. So we were talking to that particular platform pod match and Alex at pod match on taking over the top 10 with everybody from from our group and talking about expanding The list to 100 people rather than just the top 10, because we believe that we can help that many people begin begin to get their message and story out to the world again, whatever it’s about, and there’s all the different topics that are present on that particular platform.
Um well, I I think you’ve you’ve given a demonstration of how powerful it is and I have, I have had the story conversation a few times and it hasn’t, hasn’t sort of resonated with me as much, but I think you’ve done a really good job of that today. So well done. Thank you. Is there anything that I should have asked you about today? There there’s one thing um I don’t know if you should have asked me about one of the people that really changed my story was a guy named Jay Conrad Levinson. And you may have heard of him or some of the listeners may have heard of him, He was the father of Guerilla Marketing and he ended up, I have my copy of the book right here with with this book. This is somewhat about my story falling down, getting up and I met jay and he agreed to forward the book and he typically did not forward books that were non marketing because he was a marketing guy.
Right? And so one of the things that he said about the reason that he was willing to do that is because he found that what I was doing to heal my injuries and my health conditions were like Guerilla marketing and that I was applying those principles, even though at the time I didn’t know much about Guerilla marketing or knew who jay Levinson was. But he told me that that story taking that story, what’s like applying the principles that he was using in his market. And he said he read the story twice in the same day when he got a copy of the manuscript because he enjoyed it so much in the way that I approach things. So I recognize j as one of those people that helped change my life and that helped me recognize so much while he was alive, I would go down to his home in florida and I would sit there, he was like a little Yoda guy from Star Wars, you know, he was a small man, but I would sit in his living room listening to him and and learning from him.
So that’s a little story in itself. But I have a lot of gratitude for people like jay and there’s some other people too that help tell their story that changed my life. And, you know, even telling this story, I hope it helps somebody as well. And um you know, it’s really great to just be here, being able to talk with you, being able to have this conversation and kind of seen where it goes because we didn’t know at first what we’re gonna actually talk about, but this is where it went. And I love to be able to do that kind of spontaneously talk about something that maybe of interest in going down those avenues to provide service, to provide help to those people. And I’ve heard several of of your previous guests when I’ve listened to your podcast talk about the importance of that, of that service and of helping other people.
You mentioned how you listen to a few episodes. Well, I actually did listen to your podcast as well and I, because I’m a fan, I listen to Les Brown because I thought you know who’s not a fan of Les Brown, if you’re into self development, what was that like for you interviewing less? Well I knew lesson unless it is really great. One of the things that and if you remember from from the podcast, he had a mentor that him um Wayne Dyer and somebody named mary morrissey, they we’re all mentored by the same person and he didn’t know that. I knew the story. So before I interviewed him or when I interviewed him I mentioned that idea of that early mentor with him and it really helped us connect on on a deeper level because that was really before he was well known out there in the world and before he stepped up, but I love less and he invited me on one of his stages to speak, I talked about quantum leaps and you know how nature teaches us about quantum leap, that’s a whole nother podcast, you know, I’ve learned a lot from him as well to you know, he talks about, you know, never making a point without telling a story and never tell a story without making a point.
And you know, he’s so vibrant in his story, you know, and the whole story about the radio station and you know the drunk DJ and how he had to take over in the middle of the night for this drunk DJ and ended up being a star, not only for that radio station, but a star, so to speak, A inspirational and motivational person that’s out there traveling the world and telling his stories. It’s just like I love lesson all his idiosyncrasies and and all of his stories. I actually went back and rewatched one that I had already watched and it was the, I want to say Georgia town, 85,000 people showed up to that one and I didn’t know that, you know, they had to pull him out of the, the bathroom or whatever because he didn’t want to go out there, but it’s kind of an interesting thing to watch once you have that context.
I just thought, yeah, and you, you said you watched it before as well, right? I’ve watched it half a dozen times, probably. Yeah. And another great storyteller, that’s why I mentioned it. If people want to connect with you no more, where do they go? Well, the, the best places, endless stages and if you just go to endless stages dot com, we have a free group for speakers and podcasters, authors, coaches, experts, entrepreneurs and it’s really a free group. We have a free membership site that when you become a member of the group and there’s no charge to become a member of the group. The membership side has a number of different videos and tips on how to be a better speaker, whether it’s overcoming stage fright or delivering your message or even breathing, how to how to breathe better in telling your story. There’s a couple of downloads in in there as well on books and various helpful pds.
Um, so that would be the best place right now is endless stages dot com. Well, for everyone listening, please review the links in the description. Michael, Thanks for all the value share today in your contribution in general. I think you’ve been a great guest. Well, thank you thomas for having me. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you and hopefully with the listeners and the audience will find some value in this and um it will help them on their journey as well.