Thomas Green here with Ethical Marketing Service. On the episode today, we have Tim Redmond. Tim, welcome. Great to be here Thomas. I’m looking forward to diving into our discussion. Hopefully help the folks that are watching this or listening to this. Well, it’s great to have you. Would you like to take a moment and tell the audience a bit about yourself and what you do? Yeah, I was born at an early age. This will take about an hour and a half. No, I’m just kidding. What I do is I work with businesses all around the US, Canada, we do some overseas stuff, but that’s mostly our focus. What we do is we, we help people grow their businesses and can transform their business into a life giving source, it’s a vehicle to take them where they want to go.
And so were, we have a whole bunch of approaches that we do, we do it for you, coaching company and uh I wake up just jazz every day I get to live doing this kind of work. So, so um in terms of why you do that, what springs to mind for you there? Well, probably, probably the best thing is to give like an illustration. Uh and I think I think about uh this mike Mathis who build sheds in Arkansas, these small buildings, storage buildings. And He was in his mid-60s, he’s 68 now, but uh uh he had a pretty good business, He was generating 50 $8500 a month. The problem, the problem here is he wasn’t making any profit and in a couple of years we worked with him, we’ve got him now hitting around a half a million dollars a month or more in sales, but now his profits are around 15 to 20% So he didn’t have any retirement money set aside.
He figured he had to work until he died and uh, didn’t take any vacations with his wife. Well they bought a condominium in Florida. They spent three of four weeks in the month down there in Florida chasing each other around. They’re given to their church and they got some nonprofits in their local area that they give to. And it’s like they got their whole life back instead of working for their business, uh, their businesses working for them. So that, that’s my why is to, is to bring that kind of transformation into the lives of, of our clients. And it’s, it’s, it’s like, it’s beyond just, here’s what I do for a living, Here’s what I do to make a buck. It’s like a purpose, It’s like a mission. So that’s the way I look at it. So in terms of the things that, that that person was doing, what is the typical example that make them unprofitable. Yeah. So, um, he was virtually invisible on the internet.
And so we, we got him on there really strong as the dominant force and you got a lot more business because of that. But the real thing here is he had a business that wasn’t making a profit. You know, you, you should have a business and most businesses will say most small businesses should create a 15-20% profit. So, or more, I mean, I just talked to a client of mine that He’s now popping 35%, he installs floors in the Minnesota, you know, area. And so he’s got a really good profit. So, so um his estimating process I was wrong and what I find thomas is that business owners undervalue the value they create, right? So um, you know, he just, he just wasn’t charging enough.
There was no more profits, you know, at the end of the job and you know, there’s a buyer and a seller in every transaction, so we’re selling our service, but many of us, business owners were buying were buying the buyer story, they’re the seller and we’re buying their story and why can’t afford this and there’s no way I can do this. And so we don’t have a real clear vision of the value we create and why we can stand our ground to say, here’s what you’re getting with us that you won’t get with other people and it’s well worth it. If you’re just price shopping, we’re not the best guy to go around with to do business with. But if you want the best value that is all that we give you and the quality of our work and the quality of the materials we use and whatever is involved in that you’re gonna get more bang with your buck with us. And so that’s what we taught them how to do and you know, he was convinced that people could only pay this much?
Well now he’s able to sell it for a reasonable profit. He’s not ripping anybody off, you know? And sometimes we actually have a an internal like a cognitive dissidence, like, like if we make a profit, it’s like we’re almost taking advantage of people. Well, that’s a problem. You know, I mean, I believe not making a problem profit is immoral. Well, that’s that’s really strong. You know, you’re like, you’re gonna preach at me now. I’m not trying to do that. I like to shock people, But it’s immoral because you’ve got customers that are relying on you and if you’ve got employees, those employees and their families are relying on you and if you don’t make a profit, you can’t continue your business, you know? And so having a healthy profit is healthy for the buyers and you and the employees and everybody involved. It’s a it’s a healthy process. And so we, you know, it’s a big part of what we do in the 1st 90 days as we make sure that we we change they’re estimating process, we change the pricing, we change their approach and how they sell so that they can close these deals at at for a reasonable profit.
That makes sense? Or is that perfect sense? Yeah. And I’ve had, I’ve heard many times that small business owners don’t charge enough and that’s the reason why they’re struggling. Why do you think it’s such a frequent problem? Well you know the way we look at the world is a lot of the way we look at ourselves and so I find that business owners and I’m not getting on them. I’m you know everything that I talked about I’ve been in the middle of and I like I’m exhibit a of doing that doing business the worst way. And honestly truth was doing it and I had gone to England many times throughout the U. K. You know speaking at different events and growth and and how to grow your business. How to create teams and all that kind of stuff. And but I I had done that and I was struggling with a lot of it just with these very same issues. And so to answer your question it’s it’s a lot of a lot of their internal processing.
A lot of our internal processing we’re we’re kind of like either we don’t feel worthy, we don’t feel deserving. We you know somebody criticizes our work. It’s like we begin to get onto ourselves to go into a downward spiral. And I like to say that the first product you sell whenever you sell anything now this is just this is my philosophy is just my opinion. So um you know it doesn’t mean that that these these awesome people watching this are gonna agree. But the first part of, most of the time you say well the first part of yourself you know is myself. Well there, that’s the second product. The first product you sell is your emotional state is how you feel about yourself and the world around you. If the world’s against you and your kind of down on yourself and and your, you know, just you just need to make a, you just have got to make this the sale, even if you don’t make much of a profit is better than not doing anything, You know?
And so we have these programs in our mind that just we make a case against ourselves and it’s, it’s tough to compete because the first product you sell is the confidence or a sense of certainty about yourself and what you’re selling and what you’re providing, what you’re offering to people that they, that’s an emotional state that they buy into. But a lot of times what we project is uncertainty and we’re down on ourselves and we’re a little bit depressed because we look at our bank account, what’s not there? It’s like half full or half empty. What if it’s completely empty? What about that? So, you know, it’s stopped building a case against yourself is what that’s what I tell your the awesomeness of these people watching. You know, I was just reading a book from a dear friend among his, he’s got a nonprofit among his ministry board. We’re talking. He gave me his latest book is called beat, Self defeated by john Mason.
And he’s written a book called enemy called average. You’re born original don’t die. It was just great. He wrote the book for people that don’t like to read books like 22 page chapters and his first chapter in this book. I was just reading it yesterday thomas and it’s like his first chapter was me versus me. So how much can we, you know, we’re the worst enemy. You know, and so you know, our coaching is very practical and tactical do this, let you know we’re doing for you coaching company. So where there’s a lot of things we’re doing for them, but at the same time it’s, you do have to do a little mind work, mindset work and, and, and, and be confident with what you’re doing. Sure it’s gonna be better next year. But what you’re doing this year is, is worthy of, of having a selling at a price. You can make a decent profit. Well, I have heard it said that people need to add a zero to their pricing.
I don’t know whether you think that’s a bit extreme. But in terms of your experience, would you say on average is the amount that people should increase their pricing by? Um, I would say 673%. No, I, you know, I’m just Not intelligent. You know, adding a zero. That’s, that’s like 1,000% increase. And I, you know, there may be some situation that applies. Um, but you know, I work with contractors, I work with specialty dots, I work with people have got a whole lot of competitors and people do price shop. Right? And so that’s, you know how we, you know the scripts that we helped write for them so that they don’t talk about price, but they talk about values is huge when I find most, most companies, like if I were working with a remodeler or a, you know, a plumber or electrician or You know, even a doctor down the road, uh, I would say you can start immediately with a 10% increase.
And for most people, you can actually start with a 20% increase. So let’s say your, your, your normal visit to do a service call is is $300 or Uh, or about the same. Unfortunately, That’s, that’s probably not anything to joke about. But you know, the pounds still worth more than a dollar, but not near as much as it should. A 20% increase means instead of charging 300, you’re charged with 360. Well what that does or 330 if it’s 10%, what that does is that 10% or 15 or 20%? That adds right to your bottom line. And there are some people that are charging just for their labor, that’s all they’re paying and there’s two ways that a business owner should make money, they should make money for any work they do themselves. So they should get paid labor.
You know, if they’re not on the front lines in it that, but they’re managing their company or if they’re doing the work, they should get paid labor. And then the second way they should get paid is their business should make a profit. And those are two separate transactions. And I hope, I hope that helps The folks watching this. Because what we’ve done in our estimating is we’ll say, listen, let me look at your estimating process here. Okay, I see this, this this you have a little bit of mark up here. Let me say, what’s missing here is you don’t have 20% for your profit? I said, well, I can’t show the client that I said, you can build that into your pricing. You know, you don’t have to necessarily show it out, right? But you want to make sure you’ve got built in there at least 20% profit. So that means you’ve got, you know, all the costs you have here and the overhead that you have a lot of times we’re missing profit and overhead and are estimating. And when you add those in there, then yeah, it’s higher.
But it’s you make a reasonable profit. Have you got any thoughts around the conversation with existing clients and price increases. Well, okay, so here’s here’s one thought we say, well listen, they’ve been paying this for the last five years. I mean I can’t just raise the price they’re gonna leave me. And when you let’s say that inflation it’s been crazy nowadays. Right let’s say inflation is just 3% a year. If you don’t if you don’t raise your price for five years you’re actually losing about 16-17% of your profit by staying the same. And your fear of raising your prices because clients will leave is mainly a fear we create ourselves and the clients that will leave with a moderate increase. I mean adding a zero, maybe a little aggressive but putting 10 15 or 20% on there.
As a matter of fact I worked with a guy, he was electrical contractor up in Kansas city area and he he was generating about $125,000 a month in gross revenue. And when we looked at his P. N. L. He thought he was making some profit. Not near as much as he wanted to but when I looked at it over several months he wasn’t making any profit. He was breaking even. And he was upset about it. And I go well I got more reason for you to be upset. You’re not making any money for your business. You’re paying yourself labor but you’re not you’re not making profit as a business. And I said I’d like for you to increase your prices. 20% boom off the bed. He said there’s no way I’m gonna do. That is okay, well let’s just try 10%. Well, I can’t even do that. Everybody’s gonna leave me. And I said, I’m gonna bet you a state dinner. And for you vegetarians out there. Please forgive me. Just for a moment, I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna bet you a state dinner. He’s he’s coming down to Tulsa in Oklahoma and uh he’s coming down there.
We’re gonna do some filming and work on his business. And uh I said you come down now if you have any more than two of your customers complain about the price increase, the state dinners on me. But if you have two or less complain, then you’re not only buying me a state dinner, but I’m gonna invite my girlfriend who happens to be my wife of 33 years. And uh and we’re gonna just make sure we come really hungry. It’s gonna cost you a lot of money. So we’re kind of getting around with it. Well, he bought us a state dinner. You know? He said yes. Just nobody complained. He said, one guy was like questioning because I made a one year commitment. I said well that’s different. I said if you’ve given your word on a on a contract basis over a certain period of time, then don’t go back on your word. That’s the worst thing you do in your business. But he’s now he’s hidden between five and $600,000 a month, He’s at 20% 1 part of his business that 23% just talked a little bit ago.
And so he’s making $1 million Thomas that may be controversial to some of your folks, but I’m gonna say it anyway, just if I can get them to think about it and consider maybe changing their approach. This, this is what it’s for the primary purpose of your business is not to serve your customers. That would be like, that’s ludicrous. That’s what I know. Now, if you don’t, if you don’t serve your customers well, your business won’t fulfill its main purpose. So that’s important. But what is the main purpose of the business? I’m gonna suggest this and this may help people. Some of you guys may be irritated at me and we’ll give you my email or however you want to talk about and you can yell at me and throw tomatoes at me whatever you want to do.
But I believe the main purpose of your business is to serve you the owner. Okay. And so now if you don’t treat your employees well, the business won’t serve you if you don’t treat your customers well, your business won’t serve you. But what we do in our coaching is we we redesign what we want the business how we want the business to behave and where we want it where you want it to take you and then we reverse engineer that to get you to that point. Okay that’s what that’s what our coaching does and then we keep you on on track and we do a whole bunch of stuff for you to keep you on track. And uh and so that that’s something that a lot of people don’t think about, you know and so that’s why they’re taking calls in the middle of a of an awesome date. Oh no there’s clients call. Sorry honey. Well stop doing that you know start being fully present with the people you’re at. It’s not that you hate your clients and some of you are in a position you’ve got to answer the call every time they call.
But we’ve got to train our business to work for us instead of us working for the business. Great answer. And I appreciate the value. I think that if if they were to the audience were to do one. Well just take that one thing it would be enough. So I appreciate that in terms of how you got into this business. How did that happen? Well I okay so um I studied accounting in college. I became a C. P. A. And worked for Pricewaterhousecoopers and uh worked on that for a while And a couple of years after that I I I joined the guy that has started a software company that was marketing products to C. P. A. S. And so we grew that up as just he and I and we grew it up to about 400 employees and we sold it to intuit the makers of Quicken quickbooks, that kind of, I think that’s in the UK as well. And then after that I began I began traveling around, I started a nonprofit and I began to do conferences for business people and pastors of churches and government employees.
The government leaders just to help them run better organizations, how to grow their organization, how to grow their people and all the lessons I had learned from these 20 years or so of work. And many times after the end of the seminar people would come up and say, hey, do you offer coaching? I go, sure. What’s your question thinking? So sometimes I spend an hour with them and not realizing that, you know, people actually charge for that hour. And uh, so you know, it’s like um took me a little bit here to catch on and say, well maybe this coaching is something that ought to check into. And so I just shifted instead of going out speaking and training. I just really focused on, well how can I help you as a businessman and still do some speaking, Still do some of that some and which I do like speaking in UK because um, the brits, you americans just have to deal with this. But the brits, their brain goes so fast and with wit that they get my jokes when I say them, sometimes they’re laughing before I get to my punch lines.
They slow down you guys. And the americans usually laugh about two minutes after I tell a story. So You know, I, uh, but anyway, so I, I don’t do that as much. We, we just focus on, we’ve got about 150 businesses we’re working with right now. I’ve got a whole team of coaches that are trained in my systems. And so that’s, that’s how I got into it is just people asking me and thinking, wow, maybe this, maybe this is really what I’m supposed to be doing. So demand for your services is probably a good thing, a good positive. We say driver to get into it. Would you say the biggest challenges of your business are, well, um, the biggest challenge with most businesses, including our businesses is to, is for us to create a purple cow that, you know, it’s, if you’re driving, you’re passing a farm, you see some black and white and brown cows, that’s usually what you see.
But if you saw a bright shiny purple cow, if you saw it when you’re five years old, you’d still be talking about it today, you know, and the guy that wrote that book, Seth good and wrote a book called the purple cow, you said if you’re not remarkable, you’re invisible. And uh and so among the biggest challenges is just to stand out because everybody in their pet dog is a business coach, just a lot, you know, everybody coaches. And so how do you how do you separate yourself? How do you show people, you know, you can you can trust this process because we’re gonna move the needle in your business. And uh and then with that is creating a marketing process to attract those people that are your target audience. And I would say this here, thomas is most of us in business, you know, we we just we say everybody could be our our customer.
And so I like to say this, we’re marketing to too many people. So I like to say that you can widen your reach by narrowing your focus. So we work with all kinds of businesses, manufacturers, retail, online, offline, um contractors, chiropractors, anybody in the health care, urgent care centers, but virtually any business, you know, we’re we can work with, but we have focused on going after contractors and professionals in the healthcare industry that that own a business there, and we just helped them just grow as big as they want to grow. And so by focusing on that now we’ve really focused our expertise and people can buy in that much more. So it’s, and then having a sales process. I mean, there’s just, there’s just so many things I could share about it. I don’t know if you have any other related questions to that or if I answer the question you answered the question brilliantly, I have a follow up on differentiation just because I think a common objection to the purple cow principle is, well, I don’t, I don’t know what’s different about my business.
So if someone comes to you and says, well, I just do this service or that service, what what advice do you give them? Or would you give them? The first question I would ask is why should they choose you versus somebody else because they want the money? Yeah. And the that if that’s all they say, I could say that’s probably the problem. You know, if you know another question I would ask, if they’re gonna be really stubborn with this the way you’re portraying yourself right now, you’re just, you’re, you’re, you’re answering your asking questions for your audience? So I’m not accusing you of being that. But the second question I would say is, do you have competitors? Yes, of course they do. Have you ever had to clean up the work that another competitor did? Well, yes, of course, it’s all okay, So there is something differentiating that you do a better job.
You can’t just say, you know, we were different because we do high quality work and we care. Everybody says that it’s like everybody says that, then it’s like nobody’s saying, you know, nobody’s saying so, but there’s unique ways that you can create differentiation. So here’s one that I work with on a plumber. So how many plumbers are there in every town? I mean, usually there’s dozens, if not hundreds. And the larger towns, larger cities are thousands. Right? So remember this one plumber we had, it was a local guy and he drove up with his truck and I was just out outside just getting fresh air and waiting for him. So he came into our office for his coaching session. But I saw on the side of his uh, his truck, he had this this little sign that says we wear belts. I go, why do you have? We wear belts? He said, well, plumbers are famous for showing off their butt cracks.
So we wear belts. So you don’t get to, you know, stare at our butt cracks while we fix your sink or bathtub or whatever. And I, and so, okay, I said, well, that is a purple cow. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, we’re gonna do what we call this one sheet, which is a very powerful, it’s way better than any brochure that you put together. We bring people through this process. But we we have a comparison of a typical plumber in this case versus how this guy goes and he had one of his top items was he offered a, I suggested to him that he offered a no butt crack guarantee. You know, he’s got people calling him laughing saying, you don’t know. But I guarantee you guys is absolutely, he says, hey, I want you out, you know, and but if I see your anybody but crack, you know, it’s labor is free. That that was the guarantee of labor’s free of it.
So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of things right under your nose and what we do, thomas’s, we’re so used to our business that we get bored with our business. We we check out, well, there’s nothing unique about it and I can talk to anybody about any business. And within five minutes I can find a purple cow, you know, and if there’s, there’s some unique thing that you do that would cause you to offer a better product and it may be price. I wouldn’t recommend competing on price. But a lot of us do if if the customers just talking about the price, then we haven’t made really clear the value we’re providing. So that’s, that’s kind of something to think about. But, you know, there’s, there’s purple how items in every business, you just have to think about it. You know, I don’t, I don’t mind in our if anybody, you know, said, well, help me with a purple cow. Yeah, sure. They can email me and I don’t know that I’ll spend time with them on the phone, but if they’re a legitimate business and you know, they’ve qualified for a growth plan, we can bring them through that, you know, but, but it’s uh, you know, don’t check out.
And then what I do is I will look at what other competitors are offering. I look at just just advertisements, you know, from, you know, how are people differentiating themselves? And I may find something that from a company that makes glass vases, you know, and it’s like, how is that gonna, well, there’s something that can trigger my creativity about what I’m doing. You know, it’s just, you know, some of the laws of thermodynamics and you know, it’s like when, when something still is gonna stay still, you know, when something’s in motion, it’s going to stay in motion, you know, and so we want to create motion in our business. And it really takes that and this, I believe in coaching. I mean, I’ve got four coaching organizations helping our company right now. I mean, I take my own medicine, so it’s good to have an expert help you think through that. It’s not just a plug, it’s just, you know, if your stock get with somebody that cannon stock, you probably not proper english, but that’s the way I look at it.
Well, your answer does cover something which you said initially, which is that people undervalue themselves and the value that they provide. So it’s worth highlighting that that problem you already kind of alluded to it. So it’s another reminder for us. You did in your answer say that you grew a business from two people to 400 I kind of, I didn’t follow up on that, so I feel like I should in terms of the your ability to do that, if, if someone was to say, how the hell did you do that, grow that business that big? What would you say, one step at a time, making a lot of mistakes and thankfully the mistakes weren’t too costly that it derailed the operation. Um but look, we uh I like what Bill Gates said, he said, we tend to under we tend to overestimate what we can do in a year, and we can we tend to underestimate what we can do in 10 years and you know, what, what we did on this is I had a vision and I remember writing this down was 25 years old, that just joined with the company just left Pricewaterhousecoopers and I wrote down some dollar visions, you know, some dollar goals that, you know, we’re gonna get to a million dollars a year, a million dollars a month, a million dollars a week and a million dollars a day.
And you know, with that kind of goal in mind, I kept thinking, well how can we expand what we’re doing and progress um is an uneven pathway. The sound of progress is the clanging and crashing of ideas and successes and failures and, and so it’s it’s really having a long term vision and, and the tenacity and endurance to really stay the course and to continue learning as you go, continue adopting. So we built this through mostly with direct mail, but we had a very targeted audience. Again, we, we widen our reach by narrowing our focus. And so we would get a list from the Internal Revenue Service and they would have all the tax preparers by that list and send us something out. We, we, we, we started out with just a few 1000 we got to where we were sending out about 1.3 million pieces of mail a year, you know, and so we grew the thing to about $40 million and we had folks that kept knocking on our door to say buy it.
And so uh it was time that somebody finally offered a price, you know, that was high enough for us to turn our heads and pay attention to it. So you still do direct mail. Now, I don’t do that. Now our advertising is part of this, doing these podcasts, I’ll be launching my own podcast shortly. Just a get a really good just compact 10-15 minute sessions on a problem, you know, a client example of how they overcame that and an example of uh bad advice that gets the opposite, just real tactical, practical things that people can apply really quickly. But we, we do a lot on facebook and instagram and I think they’ve done some stuff on Tiktok. I don’t jury’s still out on that. Um, we get a lot of word amount referrals just from customers that are talking to their friends and said, hey, you know, I’m, I’m looking, I’m really prospering in my business or maybe you ask, well, how are you seem like you’re just blowing up?
Yeah, well, here’s the company. So we get a lot of, a lot of business from referrals to, alright, well, I think you’ve provided a lot of value today. I’m certainly going to see whether you’re on Tiktok or not because I’d like to see what that looks like. But I ask a question for everyone that comes on the, on the podcast and that is what does success mean to you? Yeah, success for me is, um, having the freedom to do what I love doing. And uh, whether it’s something I do for pay or not for pay. I like, I like generating exchanges with people that are profitable for them and me, but I love, like I don’t have a retirement plan. I’m putting money aside just for rainy days and you know, let’s say that if I get older and I’m not able to work for whatever reason.
I’m trying to be as wise as I can, but I don’t ever plan on retiring. I mean I promised my wife that we’re gonna spend a lot more time having me chase her around exotic resorts all over the world. Okay, so we were just in London business and dear friends, we just had done a river cruise. You, so having the freedom to do those things, but I get up and I get to do what I love to do every day and sure some days are long or some days, maybe not the most pleasant, but I, I love what I wanna do and I want to do this for another 50 years, as long as I have breath, you know, and as long as I take enough trips and chase my wife around, you know, I think everybody in this household is happy, so glad to hear it. Well, if people want to hire you or follow you, where do they go? Well, um they can go to our website, it’s Redmond growth, so it’s R E D M O N D.
It’s like the city in Redmond Washington where Microsoft is basis. Redmond growth G R O W T H dot com, they can fill out a form there where they can email me directly tim at Redmond growth or T I m at Redmond growth is my email and if if thomas, if they will email me or on the form from a website and they’ll say, hey, I, I watch thomas Green’s podcast and I love thomas Green and you give them a five star review folks, whatever, just show your love for thomas, if you do that, what we have is we have what we call a growth plan, where we analyze your business. Um we see where you are and your current capacity and then we see where you want to be in three years and then we will build a step by step process of things you can do on your own to get to that three year goal of revenue and profits.
And usually during the call, we expand what they think they can do just through our process. Various is an amazing process and uh we normally charge $2500 for that because they see a clear view of, of where they want to go and how they get there. But we will waive that $2500 fee if they relate to you and your podcast here, just, hey, I saw you on the podcast, so they do that. We wave it, it’s no cost. I would like to say it’s gonna be a real business that you’ve got going. And but yeah, I’d love love to be able to do that. I hope to hear from some of your folks here and if I can be of help to them, that’d be great, very generous. So thank you for putting that out, tim have you got any closing thoughts for us today. Um yeah, let’s let’s go back to uh let’s go back to people’s like how they look at themselves.
And I want to ask a question um if you had a friend that spoke to you the way you speak to yourself, would they still be your friend? I asked that question on the podcast quite frequently, do you want to know the funniest answer I got from it? He said I’d probably be in prison. Yeah. So uh my recommendation is to uh create a mindset where you’re not working against yourself. And it’s like I remember my wife being in front of a mirror, this is she’s not around here, but and we’re getting ready to go for a meeting to a meeting somewhere and she was commenting on her body, she’s a beautiful woman. I mean I married up, I married up to say that. Um but she was commenting on something and I every now and then about every 7.5 years I say something just brilliant. It just comes out right and I say stop talking to my best friend like that, nobody talks to my best friend that way.
And she’s like ready for a argument and she realized what I had said. And let me just say we were late to the meeting here. So but anyway, we’ll leave it at that, but it’s just don’t build a case against yourself. There’s so much that the world needs of what you have to offer. If you’ll just pour your heart into it. A great way to end, Tim. Thanks for being a great guest today. Thank you Thomas.